PAUL: Hello, and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of Told
by an Idiot, and this is a podcast where I

talk to friends and colleagues delving
into what made them

the person they are today.

Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is one of the key
directors of his generation,

from his early work
at New Writing Company, Nabokov, to his

directorship in residence at the Old Vic.

He has gone on to lead two of the UK's
most prestigious theatres,

the present one being my hometown
theatre, the Birmingham Rep.

Welcome, Joe Murphy.
JOE: hi, Paul.

Thank you so much.
It's an incredibly generous introduction.

I'm not sure I claim to be one of the key
directors of my generation,

but how amazing to be said that.

PAUL: Well, you're very welcome to it.

It's a real pleasure to
have you as a guest, Joe.

I've said it privately to you,
but I'll say it on this episode.

Many congratulations on your new post as
Artistic Director of a theatre that is

very, very close to my heart, obviously.

My formative theatre's experiences were
at the Rep, and I hold it dearly, and I

think they've made a brilliant choice.

But we'll come to the Rep
a bit later on, if that's okay.

What I tend to do, Joe,
at the start with my guests,

I try to take them back to their very
first or very early

theatre/showbiz experiences and what
that might have been, and indeed,

what effect it might have had on you.

So could you remember
something very early?

Did you go with family,
friends, or school or something?

JOE: Well, it's interesting.

We can go two ways of this because
my actual earliest,

proper earliest memories are of actually
getting involved with theatre.

Then I've got a slightly later,
very strong memory of watching one.

So which area, where do you want to go to?

PAUL: I think I'd like to go to both.

We don't often have people with early
experience of getting involved.

So could we start with the getting
involved and what that was?

JOE: Yeah, sure.
There was a couple of things.

I was very over imaginative as a child,
combined with, in a sense,

I think, slightly lonely.

I used to play in my own
world a lot when I was young.

But also then that was matched
with a massive overactive imagination

and a real hunger to be sociable
and talk to people all the time.

I think my parents were a bit like,
Where do we put all of this?

What do we do?

They sent me off
to Youth Theatre in am dram.

I grew up all over the place.
I was born in Dublin.

I grew up just outside London.

But this is when we got down
to the south Coast in Bournemouth.

They sent me along to really, I suppose,
syphon off some of that extra imaginative

energy that was pouring out of me
and ultimately make friends, I think.

It's hard to have that perspective
when I was that young.

But I think ultimately, in theatre,
I've always been looking for a tribe.

I haven't always fitted
in either at school or wherever.

I Obviously, listeners can't see this,
but I'm tall with big, vibrant red hair,

which has become an asset in my later
life, but as I'm sure we can all imagine,

at school, it was not ideal.

I think it was like they were looking
for friendships and socialisation,

and that is what theatre...

My My first experience of theatre is
with my local youth theatre,

and it's about tribe.

I think I just thought, Oh, my God,
a place where I belong,

a place where everyone's imaginations are
like mine, a place where I get to actually

wrought my imagination in something real.

I started doing youth theatres,
I think a lot of us did,

but there was quite a big am dram scene.

I'm obsessed with the am dram scene,
and I've got a real passion for it.

I was interacting with a lot of adults,
actually, and a lot of people older.

It was just blowing my mind all
the different perspectives and ways

of talking and ways of hanging out
and ways of being friends and literature

and comic books and all these different
things that people were pouring into me.

My sort of earliest experience is
really about tribe and belonging.

PAUL: It's fascinating you say that, Joe.

I was listening to a Desert Island Discs
where a pal of mine was the guest,

the brilliant Monica Dolan.

JOE: Amazing.

PAUL: It's a great episode.

But she was talking similarly about
belonging or finding that, again,

going along to a youth theatre or whatever
and feeling like, Oh,

my God, I really belong.

I think people can really connect to that,
that suddenly you do feel

at home in some ways.

Also what I like about,
particularly making theatre,

certainly as an actor when I'm acting
and stuff,

is often you can end up in rooms
with people from really different

backgrounds, totally different generations
I'm working or acting alongside people

who are the same age as my kids.

I find that really
refreshing and rewarding.

It's really great because a lot of people
in jobs tend to maybe progress and work

with people of the same ages they are.

Whereas I think theatre
is such a mix of things.

That's fascinating.

But what about your first experience
of seeing something that you remember?

JOE: I must have seen things before this,
but my real first vivid memory,

I'm about 12 or 13,
and it was at the Southampton Mayflower,

which was the big local theatre,
although it was about an hour

drive way from where I was.

My mum took me to see Les Mis,
and I am Les Mis obsessed.

I mean, it's my shameful
It's not a secret as a...

Well, it's not shameful,
but when you're an up and coming

theatre director and it's like
everything's got to be cutting edge,

and really all you want
to say is, I love Les Mis.

PAUL: How old were you, Joe,
when you went to see Les Mis?

JOE: Yeah, I'd have been 12, 13, maybe.

But then me and my mum have gone
throughout my life, basically.

We just keep going back and watching it.

There was something, I think just the high
drama of it, passion of it, the production

values of it, just really imprinted.

I'm a bit of a history geek,
so this idea that history could be alive

and contemporary and the singing taking
itself seriously, I think,

or the singing being actually
an opportunity for drama,

that blew my mind as well.

Yeah, so that really imprinted on me.

PAUL: I'm also intrigued that you and your mum
have revisited that particular

show at various points.

Do you have a particular favourite
production that you've seen?

JOE: In my head, it was the first production.

I'm sure now, I'm sure
that was just the 13-year-old.

I love the London version.

There was a new, I think
it originated Australia.

They updated the production recently.

When I also met my partner,
our second date was to see Les Mis because

it came to Cardiff where we were living.

I was like, Well, listen, if you're,
if you want to get to know me,

the best way is to come and watch Les Mis
with me and understand my passions.

PAUL: That worked, I hope.

JOE: Yeah, it did.

I think she actually really enjoyed it.

That was a key little moment where
we like is this going to work?

PAUL: No, I think those things are important.

I had a similar
occurrence with my partner of many years

now where she was a very keen
Pet Shop Boys fan, and I wasn't

particularly into Pet Shop Boys.

They did a musical,
and I remember taking her to that.

I won't go any further with that anecdote.

Other than to say, we've been
together for a very long time.

We're very happy.

Anyway, so you
get into theatre through

the Youth Theatre, and that's
presumably performing, acting.

JOE: Acting.

Up until I was about 18,
I wanted to be an actor.

I did loads of youth theatres around.

I was in two or three local
Youth Theatres, and then we had two or

three am dram companies I was doing
everything from Oh,

What A Lovely War to Pantomimes
to The Importance of Being Earnest.

One of the very first roles I was ever
cast in was as MacDuff's Son in Macbeth.

I got killed, but the knife was very cold
on my neck, so I kept laughing,

just as I was trying to say,
"he has killed me, mother".

Anyway, I really wanted to be an actor.

Then I did this thing called
Year Out Drama Company

at Stratford-up-on-Avon,
where you basically do like a year.

It's absolutely amazing thing.

You basically test a year of drama school.

It's like as if it was drama
school to go, Is this what I want?

Is this full commitment what I want?

I loved it.

You go to Edinburgh and you do the fringe,
and it's a really mind-blowing experience.

When my tutor sat me down at the end,
she was like, "Are you sure

you want to be an actor?

Because I'm not sure you're good enough
for a profession," which sounds like

really brutal, but it was actually
very bracing and candid and honest.

To be totally honest,
I was an actor because I hadn't thought

of anything else, really,
or been introduced to anything else.

When I was at school,
film wasn't really an option because I'm

incredibly old, so cameras and stuff,
they just weren't really

around or available at school.

I was at state school.

We just didn't have any of that stuff.

But what you could do is push some tables
aside and do a scene

or a play or something.

My mind hadn't really been open to all
the other amazing arts of the theatre,

like directing or the technical
arts or design or anything.

When she posed that question to me
and said, "Well, maybe university rather

than drama school would be a better option
because you could explore the wider

landscape of theatre and feed your brain
in different ways." I went

to Exeter University
and ended up specialising in directing.

I wouldn't say I'm a particularly good
director, but I was

certainly not a good actor.

That really opened my mind.

The joy I've got from directing
surpassed anything I'd got from acting.

I just I loved it.

PAUL: Well, before we then go into your
professional career as a director,

I have to ask this,
do you ever have any regrets that you

didn't act professionally
or was that long since gone?

JOE: No, I don't at all.

I don't actually.

I never did actually.

Weirdly, as soon as she said that,
something clicked in my mind

and I was like, "Oh, yeah.

I do enjoy talking about plays
more than I enjoy being in plays.

I do enjoy thinking about the world
of the play or the meaning of the show

more than I necessarily..." I love
the adrenaline rush of being on stage,

but actually, I'm in awe of actors.

When an actor can
articulate that in a life of a character

in a way I just never could,
I get such a pleasure from being near

that bit of the process
and watching them do that.

I'm ultimately a show off, probably.
I miss that bit.

I miss being applauded, I think.

But other than that, Other than that.

PAUL: Obviously, you spend a lot of your time
at university directing whenever you can.

Then did you then do a
separate directing training?

JOE: I did, yeah, exactly.

I specialised in directing at university.

Then I did Edinburgh in the three years as
a university in all

the extracurricular shows.

Then I did an MA in directing at
Mountview, which was really fascinating.

It was this big moment where I went, Oh,
my God, you've got to earn

a living and there's a profession.

And up to that point, it was just like,
"Aren't these plays cool?

And isn't it really interesting to think
about these things?" And then Mountview is

a massive wake-up call and going,
There's an industry and there's a way it

works, and there's a way of getting jobs,
and there's a way...

How is this a profession, not just
a passion or an academic exercise.

Then I came out of drama school and
I had no money and I was living in London

and someone just said, "Oh, I'll give you
50 quid for a day if you'll help me move.

Somebody needs some furniture
moving." And I was like, "Oh, great.

Yeah, brilliant." Anyway,
it turns out this furniture I was moving

was for Josie Rourke,
who was just becoming artistic director

of the Bush Theatre at that time.

I was moving her into a flat opposite
the Bush, and it was her technical

manager or something who wanted help.

I just said, "Oh,
I've just graduated as a director.

Can I have a job, please?" Josie,
to her incredible credit, gave me a job.

PAUL: How fortuitous that you were
a removal man on that particular job.

It could have been
something totally different.

How you embark on this,
I assume assisting.

JOE: That's exactly right.
Yeah.

First of all, obviously
at the Bush and then beyond that.

PAUL: Obviously, you and I met when you were
assisting Jeremy at the Globe on Much Ado.

JOE: That's right.
PAUL: I'm quite curious.

People who maybe don't know much about
the world of theatre,

what would you say the key skills
of a good assistant director are?

Having done that yourself, what do you
think the main things you need to have?

JOE: That is a really interesting question.

What I found was that very quickly you
realise you're the only person in the room

who isn't under pressure or being judged.

Everybody else in the room
has to deliver a thing publicly that will

be commented on and torn apart and
celebrated and all the things in between.

I think what I found quite quickly
was that it's not about me.

That was the biggest I found as
an assistant director, actually.

What use can you be?

That is the question I kept asking myself.

That varies with Jeremy,
who you mentioned there, who I was

his associate for about six years.

Sometimes Jeremy needed
quite intense high-end conversations

about large conceptual things in the play.

Sometimes he needed scripts just
sorted out, like logistically.

I just had to sort a script out and get it
printed, or I'd have to talk a writer,

or I could just get some of the actors
sorted on their entrance and exits.

The skills you need vary wildly from large
conceptual things to real logistical

understanding of how theatre works,
how the cast interact with stage

management, how does that interact
with design, what the practicalities, and

how can you make all of that a lot easier.

But the biggest lesson, I think,
for assistant directors is not about you

or your ideas, actually,
for that moment in time.

That is a real blessing because you,
you get to make all your mistakes,

you get to learn from incredible people
around you, you get to absorb knowledge.

I think often as assistant directors,
we feel like we need to be in output mode,

constantly proving our worth and why we're
there and that we're ready for a show

and we can work with actors,
which is certainly my initial instinct.

But then you learn, actually,
we should be on absorb, on input mode.

It's a real privilege to be anonymous.

It's a real privilege to be in a process
where actually your

work isn't being judged.

And so it can be about everybody else.

And you're there to make it better.

I'll just tell a very
quick anecdote about that.

I interviewed with the great
James MacDonald, probably one

of the most defining directors.

Oh, my gosh, it's incredible.

I remember it was at the
Royal Court really early on.

I'd only just graduated.

I had an interview with Jeremy Herrin,
and I interviewed with James MacDonald.

James MacDonald had asked me
what I thought about the play.

I launched into this incredibly pompous,
young person, knows it all,

monologue about the play.

Then at the end, James just nodded at me
and then went,

"I like a lot of silence in my rehearsal
room." That's like his response.

I was like, "Cool, so I'm
not going to get this job".

But there was something about
that perspective that I thought was really

interesting, the idea that actually
directing can be silence,

knowledge can be quiet.

I just thought that was
really interesting.

In a weird way, the rejections often lead
to the most interesting

learnings or improvement.

I didn't get the job with Jeremy either.

Then he rang me later for another job, and
then that started a six-year relationship.

I think the other thing I would just say
about assistant directing and young

directors is rejection often
is something more interesting.

I think I almost never got a job I
went up for in my first few years.

I always got something afterwards.

Some would go, "Oh,
I remember we talked about", or, "Oh,

we connected on, and,
You weren't right for that,

but how about this?" The idea that you you
never know who you're in the room with,

you never know where the paths are going
to take you and where that might

come from, important or relevant.

PAUL: That's a very interesting
area you just touched on as well.

Being open to so many of those
dynamics or relationships in a room.

It's very confusing,
the James MacDonald things.

Whenever I think of James,
who I think is a wonderful director,

and when I see him socially, he always
seems very quiet as a person as well.

That's what I mean.

I always believe he doesn't say much.

That does make me laugh.
No, that's true.

Presumably,
you're now in a position where you're

recruiting and finding
assistant directors.

Does the say apply the other way around?

What you've described the assistant
director, is that what you're looking for,

or does it depend on the play
that you're working?

JOE: Yeah, you're always trying to match
to the play, I suppose, and process.

But ultimately, for me,
Assistant Directors about directors

and theatre makers of the future.

I suppose what I'm looking for are people
that we're really excited about,

people that have real potential.

I think also the world is so different now
to when I was coming up

and the atomisation of the world
and the politicisation of the world.

With that has become lots
of complexities and lots of improvements.

I suppose also what we're looking
when we're talking about

Assistant Directors, of course,
first and foremost, we talk about artistic

quality and potential,
but we're also looking at who is allowed

to tell stories in theatre and who isn't,
who's been left out

in the cold and who hasn't.

With our assistant directors,
we generally are going to go on to be

the directors, the artist
directors of the future.

I suppose we feel a artistic and moral
obligation around that to say,

who aren't we seeing?

Sometimes it isn't always
about an assistant job.

Now, I'm not always thinking, Oh,
can they deliver understudy rehearsals?

Can they deliver the talk?
Can they, can they, can they?

Of course, they need to do those things.

But I also think structurally,
who is being left out of theatre?

Who isn't?

Who's being told at the young age when I
was allowed to join youth theatres and I

was being empowered and told that this
culture belongs to me,

who's being told it doesn't?

Who's being disconnected from that?

Who's being alienated from that?

Can we use assistant roles if we slightly
pivot what they're needed for,

what they do as entry points,
as connexion points,

It has ways into the theatre for people
who theatre structurally

leaves out, I suppose.

PAUL: That's very interesting,
and I totally agree as well.

In a way, it means this nicely
to the notion of your

journey towards leadership, I suppose,
whatever that might mean,

whatever form that takes.

For me, running a company, of course,
is inevitably a form

of leadership or collaboration.
I have to look at it.

How did you become involved with Nabokov?

JOE: I feel like every story is littered
in chaos and fluke chances.

PAUL: No, it's good.
I like your journey.

It's good.

JOE: But I think that is, to me,
that is just what this industry is.

I was at the Bush,
so I did a year on and off at the Bush

from Josie Rourke, incredibly
giving me that first opportunity.

My first opportunity was working
on a Mike Bartlett monologue.

So instantly, my mind was blown.

Then towards the end of that year,
I worked on 2nd May 1997 by Jack Thorne.

I was probably, I don't know,
a year out of drama school at this point

or just coming out to my first year out.

George Perrin was directing it
and Nabokov was coproducing

it with the Bush.
The Bush was my church at this point.

It was all Bush, all the time.

It blew my mind.

The play is like three two-handers almost
through the night of the 2nd May election.

You're in the evening with an older tory
couple, then you're in the middle of the

night with a early '20s Lib Dem couple.

Then you're in the new Dawn with a
18-year-old, two mates, two labour mates.

Because of that, I just had quite a lot
of opportunity to work on scenes because

naturally, George
could only work on one of those at a time.

Then what do you do with the other actors?

I just had more opportunity, I suppose,
to be working and showing George what I

could do than you might
normally have on a play.

Then George and James Grieve,
who were running Nabokov,

got the Paines Plough job.

So incredibly fortuitously,
they sat me down and said,

Would I be interested in the Nabokov job?

And I was like, "Absolutely."
I think one of my strengths is that I've

always presented more confident
and more capable than I am or feel.

So I was like, "Absolutely, yeah,
I'm really up for it." We

talked about what it could be.

We were project funded at that point.

So it wasn't like an NPO or any
that investment level.

But I don't know, to this day,
I've never quite the courage to ask them,

I hadn't directed anything at that point,
professionally, not a thing.

I don't know if they knew that,
because when they introduced me

to the exec director and we started
talking, and it became quite apparent

I've never directed professionally.

The exec director who'd been with George
and James, they were two incredibly

successful and experienced directors
at this point we're a bit like, "Oh,

my God, what on earth is happening?"
Then some of our funders were like,

"Oh, my God, what on earth is happening?

Nobody knows who you are." It was really
terrifying and chaotic for a point.

We looked like we'd be
losing some funding.

Did I know what I was doing?

But luckily, in all of this, Jack Thorne,
who I just worked with on 2nd May, wrote

me a one-person show as my first show.

It was a play called Bunny
that the incredible Rosie Wyatt was in.

We did Edinburgh and we won a Fringe
first, and then we did London

and New York, and we toured,
and it was really brilliant.

But that was really down to luck and Jack
being so amazing and Rosie

being so amazing.

But also I'd met Lindsay Turner,
another obviously giant of the industry.

She said right at the beginning,
similar to what we talked about earlier,

she said, "Right now, you're anonymous.

Don't rush to get rid of that.

This is the moment.

Make all of the mistakes now.

Just direct everything you can.

Don't be pressuring yourself to be
in at the Royal Court or to be directing

at the Bush and because of that,
I made tonnes of mistakes.

Bunny, that was my first full professional
show, I directed Loads of scratch nights.

I just directed anything I
could in any scale in anyway.

Bunny was by no means perfect,
but I just made loads of mistakes

by the time I got to Bunny.

It looked like I'd launched with a first
show, and it was one of those

overnight success energies.

But it completely wasn't.

I just had amazing mentors in Jeremy
and James in Georgia

and Lindsay's amazing advice.

I really took that to heart.
Don't rush.

It'd been two or three years out of drama
school before I directed that first show.

But actually, those two or three
years are some of the most valuable.

But I find a lot of my contemporaries
and a lot of young directors I talk

to now are like, I want to direct now.

I want to do the show now.

Actually, that can do
yourself a disservice.

Actually, holding your nerve
can be a good thing, I think.

PAUL: It's interesting what you say there as
well, because do anything, make anything,

seize an opportunity,
all those things you're talking about.

But I also think as one continues to make
work further down the line and being 30

odd years with Told by an Idiot and
still making stuff, I think

it becomes even more important,
and it's hard, I think,

in the world we're in, but it becomes
even more important to take risks.

I mean, genuine risks,
because everything about

it says, don't take risks.

We don't live in a risky environment.

We don't want that risk.

It becomes even more important to go, "No,
we're going to continue to take it." It's

an interesting thing
in what they're saying.

We're going to come
almost up to date in a second,

but I'm curious because, of course,
you very successfully ran the wonderful

Sherman Theatre, and you're now
at the brilliant Birmingham Rep.

At what point did you feel you interested
in running a building

and all that entails?

JOE: Just always in my career, since I
knew that was a thing you could do.

I suppose probably Mountview Drama School,
as I started to understand this

professional landscape,
I was like, I want to run buildings.

I think really that is my journey
from wanting a tribe

and wanting belonging.

That's really what running
a building is about to me.

It's people are paid to be your tribe.
It's like, great.

No, I'm joking obviously.

But it's like you're gathering
a group of people together.

You're trying to unite them in a single
idea and a single endeavour.

And then you're going to spend your
energy, your hours, your days, your weeks,

your years, attempting
to achieve that for an audience.

And to me, that is just the most
fulfilling possible experience for me.

So I wanted to run a building
from the beginning.

PAUL: Well, it's a brilliant...

To come from where we started,
where you talked about finding a tribe,

and then that sense of almost the same
thing from that boy on the south

coast in those am dram and whatever.

Then two flagship organisations.

Of course, this is also something
that I'm always in awe of.

I've worked with a lot of directors
who run buildings,

and I was chatting on this podcast
with Justin down at Chichester.

I'm always amazed how you guys
managed to juggle all the things that you

have to deal with, which are
nothing to do with directing a play.

I know you have a great team
there at the Rep as well.

I know.
JOE: Yeah.

PAUL: I know those people.

But do you have to feign interest in
the toilets and why they're not working?

Or would you delegate that, Joe?
I'm intrigued.

JOE: I was at the Old Vic before I took over
the Sherman as the associate there.

Matthew Warchus, when I got the Sherman
job, we were working on a show together,

and he walked in with a big smile on his
face, and I said, "Oh, Matthew, are you

proud of me?" He went, "Yeah, of course.

But really,
you'll just now know all of the crap I

have to deal with all the every day."

I thought, "okay, cool." Do you know what?

Weirdly, I've never had to feign interest.

I suppose my is always very curious
about how things work on any level.

I've just always been
really curious about that.

And ultimately, I think every
screw or bolt in a building

is there to get work onto a stage.

If the loos don't work right,
my audience either aren't going to come or

they're not going to be able
to engage with the show.

They're either going to go, "Well,
that's not a building I want to go to",

or they're distracted.

I suppose because in a way,
I've always been fascinated by that,

and I've always been fascinated by,
where does an audience experience start?

As a building, ultimately,
I'm trying to curate theatrical

experiences for my audience.

Now, I suppose the very fringes
of that would be a digital experience,

online or website or whatever.

But to me, really, really, really, it's
the moment they come through our doors.

I've got to curate an artistic experience
from the way they get their drinks

at the bar, so they go to the loo, so
they watch the show, whatever it might be.

I suppose in my lame geeky mind,
I've always been fascinated by how all

of those things accumulate
to the theatrical experience.

If you get one of them wrong,
the whole thing doesn't work.

That's how I feel about it, I suppose.

PAUL: Well, I am totally confident
that the Rep is in brilliant hands.

Even when you talked earlier about
who gets to make theatre and who gets

to tell stories and all of those things
within a brilliantly diverse and creative

city like Birmingham, the fact that you're
consciously thinking about those things,

I think is a really, really
reassuring sign for the building.

It's place in the wider
culture of Birmingham.

Obviously, I'm biased.

I grew up there, but I think its
a thriving cultural hub, Birmingham.

JOE: A hundred percent.
PAUL: The Rep is right at the heart of that.

Joe, it's been really lovely chatting.

I know you're busy, I'm sure,
with lots of getting people through the

door and make sure they have a good time.

I always finish Joe with my guests
by asking seven random questions

to which you just say the first
response that you feel in that moment.

Here we go.

A Welsh cake or a bacon bap?

JOE: Man, listen, I'm sorry to my Welsh people,
but bacon bap, unfortunately.

PAUL: Okay, well, that's a very
Brummy thing, of course.

Movies -Back to the Future
or Back to the Future 2.

JOE: Back to the Future 2.

PAUL: Oh, wow.
A rare example of where you…

I suppose Godfather 2,
people might go for that over the

original, but I'm quite intrigued by that.

King Arthur or Robin Hood?

JOE: Arthur, every time for me.

PAUL: I know you've been to these cities.

Moscow or Saint Petersburg?
JOE: Saint Petersburg.

It's an amazing city.
PAUL: Expressionism or naturalism?

JOE: Probably naturalism,
but the synthesis of both would be ideal,

but probably naturalism.

PAUL: Finally, Thomas Cromwell or Henry VIII?

JOE: Cromwell, every time.
Come on.

PAUL: Of course.

Joe, I know we're going to see each other
very soon anyway, but thank

you so much for joining us.
It's been a real pleasure.

Have a good day.
JOE: Such a pleasure.

Thank you for having me on.
PAUL: Not at all.

Cheers, Joe.
Take care.

JOE: Thank you.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this
Idiot podcast, please spread the word.