PAUL: Hello, and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of Told
by an Idiot, and this is a podcast where I

talk to friends and colleagues delving
into what made them

the person they are today.

Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is a director who's
been at the forefront of British

Regional Theatre for the past 25 years.

As Artistic Director of two of the North's
leading producing houses, he is equally

at home with the classics and new writing.

Welcome, Mark Babych.

MARK: Hi, Paul.
What a lovely introduction.

PAUL: Well, it's totally deserved.

I have to come clean to listeners and say,
obviously, we have a friendship

and a working relationship going back many
years, which we will touch on when

you brilliantly invited me to become your
associate at the Bolton Octagon

many moons ago.

But I will touch on that later on.

Mark, what we do at this stage,
I ask and my guests to try

and recall their earliest theatre
experience, whether you were taken by your

family or by school,
and what do you remember of it,

and what did you see and where?

MARK: Well, we were looking at…

I'm from Stockport, and there
used to be a theatre just around

the corner, the Davenport Theatre,
and every Christmas,

like many other people,
my parents took me to the pantomime there.

Amazingly, it had some incredible people.

Les Dawson, in particular,
was leading the line.

When I was old enough to
con my way into pubs for the odd shandy,

you'd see Les having his pre-show drink
and post-show drink in there and very

happy talking to the customers.

I think Les Dawson was probably my first,
and I didn't know it at the time,

but my first experience there on
a stage in a pantomime.

PAUL: I have to say, being in awe of the late
great Les Dawson,

that's a fairly impressive first
encounter with show business, Mark, there.

Do you remember, would he
play the Dame in the pantos?

MARK: Yeah.

It's obviously a long time ago now.

It's all downhill from there, really,
from my truly formative experience.

PAUL: That's the beginning
of an extraordinary journey.

Wow.
Was this a regular thing?

You'd go every year with your family?

MARK: We'd go most years to there.

Yeah, we did until really
my interest in theatre…

I don't think it was cooking then, really.

It only really began to cook
when I was at school.

I went to the school
opposite Stockport School.

Like
many people, had a series of brilliant

teachers, music teacher, English teachers.

The school play was the main thing I
got involved in, really, as a performer.

PAUL: Interesting.

That's what intrigued me,
I was about to ask that.

What age were you then when you were
getting into the school plays and stuff?

MARK: Thirteen, fourteen, maybe.

I'd had a brief interest in it when I was
at primary school where

one of the teachers used to have a play
on in this school hall, I remember sitting

in the back, I was too shy in those days.

I was sitting in the back
and I'd love to be part of that.

It was a really cool…
This shows you how old I am.

It was a really cool bit that the teacher
was getting them to mime along to Children

of the Revolution, and I thought,
That's really cool.

I'd like to do that.

But I was actually too shy to put
myself for it, really, at the time.

PAUL: It's interesting, like you say.

That does sound cool, by the way.

Yeah, the miming to Children
of the Revolution, is that right?

But it's interesting, you say,
about that shyness and teachers that maybe

supported or provoked you
a bit as you got older.

This is something you often hear, I
suppose, with some performers, I suppose.

Even though you obviously had that
shyness, you were drawn to performing.

You wanted to have a go
and get up there and do it.

MARK: I just loved the stage,
I remember going on to the school

stage at Stockport School.

I'm thinking this was like, there
was nothing like it, the magic of it.

I mean, it was pretty basic,
but it just felt magic to me.

I wasn't bad academically, but nothing
stirred the heart more than that, really.

Just being part of a big gang
doing these shows, I mean, I hadn't

a clue what I was saying on stage.

In the first show.

My first line in the show was
from Henry IV Parts I and II,

mashed together,
called the Fortunes of False Death,

and it was, "Anon, anon, sir".

I had no idea what anon meant.
No one told me.

I just made it up.

PAUL: Wow.
What introduction.

Also introduction
to Shakespeare, I suppose.

Yes.

What about, obviously,
where you're from in and around there?

There's some very wonderful theatres.

Did you go on school trips, to places like
the Royal Exchange or things like that?

MARK: I didn't go on a school trip
to the Royal Exchange, although I went

to the Royal Exchange.

I'm trying to recall what I
saw at that point.

Talking about the late
'70s into the early '80s.

So it
was far, likely there when there was the

more than the triumvirate of the artistic
directors, Casper Wrede and all

those people, Michael Elliott.
PAUL: Michael Elliott?

Wow.

MARK: Yeah, brilliant directors
in many, many ways.

And there was John Thaw
doing All My Sons, I think.

Well, and yeah, Max Wall.

PAUL: Now, I'm even more envious.

We start with Les Dawson, and you casually
throw in Max Wall, one of my heroes.

MARK: Well, there's a through line to you there,
Paul, in your comedic genius,

things that I'm naturally drawn to.
PAUL: What was the Max Wall show?

MARK: I think it was waiting for Godot.

It was Waiting for Godot
long time ago now.

There was famously a big picture of him
on the Royal Exchange wall for many years.

PAUL: Yes, there was.
I remember that in that extraordinary...

Yes, there was.

God.

But no school trips there.

MARK: But I mean, I guess most...

I mean, you used to be taken
to the Ludlow Festival, the RSC,

and it range from Simon MacCorkindale
doing Macbeth in the outdoors I

think the show that I genuinely got,
oh, this is ace, this,

was Derek Jacobi and Sinéad Cusack
in Much Ado with the most

exquisite design by Ralph Koltai.

I always remember that it was a gold set,
and I sat in that auditorium,

like, this is beautiful.

Because I was also
interested in art as well.

It was like
art was my other thing at school.

PAUL: Where was this production?

MARK: That was at the RSC, the old RSC
in Stratford, the old building.

Long gone.

PAUL: Clearly,
the interest fired up through performing

the school plays and then obviously going
to see some great stuff at the Exchange

and at RSC and elsewhere.

At what point did it become something
that you thought,

I might like to try and do this, or did
that come after college or pre- college?

When did it start to percolate for you?

MARK: Definitely started at school,
definitely, and grew throughout that.

So the more performing I did.

I wasn't a great performer.

I could get my way through from A to B.

Actually, I
didn't come from a family who was very

interested in going to the theatre or
had much experience apart from pantomime.

None of my friends did it,
so it was a bit of an oddity,

as far as that was concerned.

I remember the school's careers teacher,
you didn't get much school's

career advice those days.

You literally had to walk into a room and
someone would say, there's

a load of leaflets there, lads.

Just have a look at them
and see what you fancy.

I do remember this because
I was interested in art.

I said to the teacher,
I quite fancy graphic design.

Oh, no, there's no future
in graphic design, lad.

There's no future in graphic design.

Then, plucked out of the air, I said,
well, I quite fancy being an actor.

Yea, you're not bad at that.

Why don't you give it a little go?

PAUL: Then what was the journey then
from then on then, college-wise.

MARK: Basically, I applied to universities.

I didn't think drama school was going
to be a thing for me because I was

never a member of a youth theatre.

I only ever did the school play, so you
could say I came at it somewhat naively.

I went to a few…

I'd look around a few universities.

Birmingham was one, your hometown.

I eventually ended up at Kent.

Kent, University, doing
drama and theatre studies was my degree.

PAUL: How was that?

MARK: Well, it was a mixture of academic
work and practical work.

I still wasn't sure whether it was for me,
really, because what I wanted

to do was do stuff, really.

I found myself writing a lot of essays.

In the first year, in particular,
doing lots of things

humanities-wise and philosophy.

I was thinking, that wasn't really
what I really signed up for, really.

There was a pivotal moment, really, where
I soon quickly realised that I wasn't

that great an actor because there was...

People in my year and above me were far
more skilled and naturally drawn to it

than I was, really.

I just wasn't as good as I imagined I was
at school, which came at the time

as a bit of a shock, really.

In fact, I was probably more interested
in playing in bands at the time.

Music was another thing that I
was naturally drawn to do.

Music, art.

PAUL: What was this turning
point you referred to?

MARK: I think somewhere halfway through my first
year, I was living in Halls of Residence,

and somebody
from the drama society knocked on my door

and said, Someone's
dropped out of directing this play.

Do you fancy doing it?

Now, I'd never directed before in my life,
really, and had no idea how to do it.

But as is typical of me,
I jump into the water.

I quite like doing things
I don't know how to do.

I think that's been something
that's been quite common in my career.

I'm not afraid to do things
that I don't know how to do.

It terrifies the life, but then what
keeps the creative engine going, really?

I'm too comfortable in something.

I don't enjoy it as much.

I like wrestling with it.

The play was Epsom Downs
by Howard Brenton,

which was set on Derby Day in 1977.

Very famously, I think,
at the Royal Court had - I think it was

a Joint Stock production,
Max Stafford-Clark did.

Very famously, featured
a bunch of naked actors playing horses.

So my first challenge was,
how am I going to do this?

But yeah, that was the turning point,
really, when I thought, yeah, this might

be something I might be quite okay at.

PAUL: Then did you direct more as you
went through university then?

MARK: I didn't direct anything else
until I did my final year was primarily,

well, all of it was directing, really.

We had-

PAUL: What did you do in that final year?
What shows were you doing?

MARK: My first one was a production
of Athol Fugard, The Island.

From there,
I got a great love of Athol Fugard's work,

and I was a big fan of the market theatre,
Johannesburg, and subsequently,

I've formed friendships with those people.

I remember a
tutor who passed away a long time ago now,

but actually saying to me,
that was incredible,

and I didn't know it was incredible.

He said, the power of that play
and what that play has to say in the hands

of those two people, and given the history
of how that play was made,

made me really think about things I'd
never really thought about before,

about why and how a piece of art is made,
what draws people to make that work.

It was incredibly powerful.

This were a great two-hander play.

Then after that, actually,
the polar opposite

of that play was Steven Berkoff's East.

Yeah, I I think I was just experimenting
the time, really, between form, really.

I thought, Well, I've
done that style of play.

I now want to do this style of play,
which was stylistically so different

content-wise, ridiculous.

I mean, Berkoff was huge
when I was at university.

PAUL: Same for me.

No, it was a very big
presence, wasn't it, Berkoff?

I mean, to the point where I think drama
schools stopped

people doing Berkoff pieces.

They were so many
at the auditions and stuff.

You leave university,
and then how and where do you get

your first professional directing gig?

MARK: It was quite a long time
after I left, really.

I mean, I had about a year in Australia,
just taking some time out,

really, and enjoying life.

When I came back to the UK, I
started applying for things like the

Regional Theatre, Younger Director Scheme.

There was a scheme at the Court,
there was something at the Orange Tree.

I just kept missing out, really.

Then I thought, Oh,
I probably need to think about

approaching this a different way, really.

Because
what I hadn't really sussed out was how

would make that bridge between
doing well at university

and then going out into the big wide
world and trying to get into the industry.

What I did was, in those days,
jobs were advertised

in The Stage every day.

PAUL: I remember in the back of The Stage,
yes, definitely.

MARK: You remember that?

Eagerly get The Stage every week and go,
what jobs can I apply for now?

There's a hell of a lot
of actor-teacher jobs going.

I thought, Well, okay, I'll just
throw my hands in the ring of that.

I can do a bit of singing,
I can do a bit of playing instruments.

I'm not awful as an actor,
but maybe I'll get better.

I went for loads of auditions, like loads.

Didn't get anything, but I went for loads.

And what I did was I picked up along
the way, I picked up loads of great acting

exercises.

I was like, well,
if I was ever asked to do a workshop,

which I subsequently was,
I had an arsenal of stuff, really.

I suppose I was I was training myself
in the how, the how, and the what,

and how does a room work?
How do you run a room?

What makes it work?

There was an awful lot
of devising in those processes.

I got to dip my toe in a lot
of areas that I wouldn't have done.

Then I got a job.

My first job, really, was as a
Youth Theatre Director at Bolton Octagon.

It was a small Youth Theatre Festival
for about two or three weeks over

the summer, and working on some new
plays that young writers had written.

I remember one in particular.

Andy Hay was the artistic
director at the time.

PAUL: What was that?

MARK: It was backstage at the Octagon.

As you know, Bolton's got
a very small backstage.

I was in a corridor painting something
and nailing something together and Andy

said that's what I like to see,
young directors getting their hands dirty.

I thought, oh, this sounds
like a nice, friendly place.

At the same time, all that was happening,
Jim Cartwright was writing the play, Two,

for Sue Johnston and John McArdle.

I got to see Jim's numerous draft
of that and got

to see a playwright in action, really.

Then I was there
on the first ever performance of that

play, which blew my socks off, really.

Then, of course, years later,
I get to be the Artistic Director.

PAUL: Well, obviously now you can't mention
Bolton without it being

our meeting, in a sense.

It's interesting when you say about
someone knocking on your door and saying,

Do you want to direct this play?

You talked about being at college.

I remember similarly,
not metaphorically or via my mobile,

where you knocking on my door and saying,
you'd seen me in some things as

an actor in the early days of it.

Then you said, out of the blue,
do you want to direct The Beauty Queen

of Leenane by Martin McDonagh,
would it interest you?

I'd heard of Martin McDonagh,
but I didn't know his plays.

I remember at that time,
you asked me that.

I went to Waterstones in Piccadilly,
and I found a copy, and I sat

and read it in Waterstones.

I didn't want to splash out at that point,
Mark, in case I said no.

I read it and I laughed out
loud on my own in Waterstones.

I thought, this is extraordinary.

I remember going back to you saying,
well, I haven't really directed any text,

but if you've got some faith, I'd love
to give it a go because I love the play.

And you did brilliantly support me.

I came up to Bolton and did that play.

Then, subsequently, you asked
me to join as the associate.

I think my abiding memory of that period,
three or four years when I was

around you and hopefully supporting you
in what your job was, was the spirit

that you engendered in the place.

I often felt this in the shows I
directed there with my companies.

They always talked
the atmosphere and the spirit.

The biggest credit I can pay it is
my partner, Sarah Jane,

who's not a big fan of press nights,
certainly not London press night.

She said, Oh, I like
the Bolton press nights.

It's much more friendly.

I thought that was a very
symptomatic of your leadership in a way.

I suppose in a roundabout way,
my question, I suppose,

is,
well,

I always felt that you were obviously
directing the shows that you wanted

to direct, and you were trying
to programme all of that.

As an artistic director,
do you sometimes feel that you

would programme something that might not
be your taste, but you think it could play

well for your audience,
if that makes sense?

Does that ever come into the mix,
or is it always stuff that you

are totally driven by?

MARK: I think we've got many audiences, really.

There certainly have been things that I'm
not a natural fit for in terms of,

but I think our audience might like.

So programming for the audiences that I
think are in the constituency of

the organiation's place,
how it reflects the people of the place.

And then that's about balancing your own
wishlist with, okay, so what is this?

How can this organisation best serve its
constituencies, its communities,

the place where it exists?

And not everything would be things
that I absolutely adore, really.

I suppose it always had
a thread through it, though.

I think it had something
to say to people, really.

It needed to be of relevance
and have quality in there.

Whatever form it was or whatever genre it
was, is this a good example of what it is?

One of the many reasons I was
drawn to work with you, Paul,

was that I'd seen the style of theatre
making that you make and seen how

great you were as a performer.

I thought, well, here's someone who really
knows about actors,

really knows about theatre making,
wouldn't it - and they're

so different to my approach.

I think the blend of that stuff just opens
up possibilities for the programme

and the way you tell those stories.

I mean, one of my favourite productions
of yours was Accidental Death

of an Anarchist.
PAUL: Oh, likewise.

I adored that.

I adored making it in Bolton.

Again, to come back to your audiences -
smart, resolutely honest

and forthright in their reaction.

But they really responded
to that production,

not just the great comedy of Dario Fo,
but the politics, the provocation.

It was a perfect fit, I felt,
between audiences and play.

I loved those audiences there.

Then, of course, amidst other things,
of course, lots of other stuff you've

done, you now and you then
still are running another

of the great theatres, Hull Truck.

I suppose my question around that is,
of course, Bolton has a very rich legacy

at the Octagon, of course it does.

I suppose my question around Hull Truck is
that you've got some very big

personalities that established that,
like the late great Mike Bradwell and

John Godber, and these figures must have
loomed large in that history and indeed

the currency of that building.

What was it like coming in following
people like that, I suppose,

into an organisation?

MARK: Well, I won't lie, it
was quite scary at the time because

Hull Truck had moved
into a new building in 2009.

I often describe that from the outside as
feeling like the world's

most difficult birth.

Because what you had…
It was…

Well, when Mike Bradwell put an advert
in Time Out, then was it 1971?

A half formed form theatre
company, seeks other half.

Mike and I worked together
on a number of occasions.

In fact, in 2022,
Richard Bean wrote a play for our 50th

anniversary which celebrated the origins
of Hull Truck Theatre, 71, Colton Street,

in which Michael Bradwell
was the leading figure.

I just thought at the time,
the idea of starting a theatre company

in one of the most economically deprived
cities of the UK,

whose fishing industry was in terminal
decline, was quite radical, really.

But as he explained to me at the time,
he said, well, you could sign on,

you could still make your art, but the
state would basically subsidise you.

Because it was a lot more than that.

His work was very much based in people
and place and the stuff that wasn't

probably what you were seeing
in the boulevard theatres

in London and around the regions, really.

They were doing something very particular.

As we know, Mike was
an incredible life force, really.

Since he's passed away,
numerous writers have spoken to.

have said he was the most brilliant
dramaturg and owe a lot to him for that.

He had an enormous impact, obviously,
in the birth of the company.

Obviously, John was there for 25 years,
I think, 25 years.

Then John left.

Then John was very responsible
for the move from Spring Street,

which was this, small but very well-loved
and supported small theatre,

pretty much near the site
where the building is now.

To move into a £15 million
brand new building?

I think it was tricky because there was
some artistic differences,

there were some funding challenges,
change of personnel,

and there was a big job to do culturally
as well as artistically, really.

I felt
an enormous sense of responsibility but

also it was going to be difficult, really.

For a couple of years, it felt difficult.

But
I always believe, and with my colleague,

Janthi Mills-Ward, who's where we are,
basically executive of,

we're joint chief executives.

We're both passionate about not letting
the humps and bumps of running a theatre

get in the way of what I believe to be its
central purpose, which is to serve

the city of Hull and East Yorkshire,
and to make sure that

there was something to be celebrated
and something to be valued

about making art in that region.

That couldn't be allowed to go away,
really.

We had to make some really,
really difficult decisions about

how we moved the company forward,
and slowly but surely,

we began to turn it around.

The work was going to be
very, very different.

It wasn't going to be John.

It wasn't going to be Mike's early work.

It was going to be partnerships that we
had built through various working

in other regional theatres.

Of course, as everybody knows,
the funding landscape at the moment

is extremely challenging.

You have to be smart, really.

You still have to hold
on to your ambition.

But the heart of it really is,
do we want high quality, excellent

art right on your doorstep for people
to access at accessible, affordable prices

and multiple access points?

Do we want that as part of what makes
a great place to live, work,

to grow up in, have families in,
just part of the rich texture

of life which gives joy?

Because God knows we
need a bit of that, don't we?

PAUL: Well, I would say certainly you've
delivered that and continue

to deliver that.

I certainly know from friends who have
worked there on a regular basis and

have gone up there,
that the passion you speak with about

the importance of that and interesting
serving the community, I think that's

a really interesting way of looking at it.

You've done that brilliantly.

Mark, we've drawn to the end of a really
lovely chat, and it's been lovely catching

up with you and also hearing about
your vision around the theatre as

well has always been inspiring for me.

We need to get together soon.

I always finish, Mark,
with asking seven rapid fire questions

to which you don't need
to think about them.

You just need to say your first response.

Here we go.
Martin McDonagh or Conor McPherson?

MARK: Conor McPherson.

PAUL: Canal boat holiday or camping.

MARK: Canal boat.

PAUL: This is to do with you as a director here.

Extra tech time or more previews?

MARK: More previews.

PAUL: Julie Walters or Victoria Wood?

MARK: Oh, no, that's a horrible one.

Just both.
PAUL: Both.

Perfect.

Someone who I know does brilliant
Christmas shows, Pinocchio

or Alice in Wonderland?

MARK: Pinocchio.

PAUL: Again, someone who runs a venue,
trouble behind the bar or trouble

in the toilets,
which would be the one you'd take.

MARK: Well given the conversation
about toilets at the moment.

I'm going for trouble behind the bar.

PAUL: And Scarborough or Blackpool?

MARK: Scarborough.

PAUL: Excellent.

Mark, it's been lovely to see you,
and thanks for today.

MARK: Thanks a lot, Paul.
PAUL: Cheers Mark.

PAUL: All the best, mate.

MARK: All the best.
Bye-bye.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this

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