PAUL: Hello, and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of
Told by an Idiot, and this is a podcast

where I talk to friends and colleagues
delving into what made them

the person they are today.

PAUL: Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is one of
Britain's finest physical comic actors.

From the RSC to the National
Theatre, from the Barbican

to the Lincoln Centre, New York.

His invention commitment is second
to none, and he has been at the heart

of Told By An Idiot since 2007.

Welcome, Nick Haverson.

NICK: Thank you, Paul.

What an introduction.

PAUL: Well, it's a richly deserved one.

I can't believe we've waited so long to
share our chat with the listeners, Nick.

We're finally here.

NICK: That's amazing.

I'm very pleased to be here.
PAUL: Well, it's lovely to see you.

I thought, if it's okay, I'll start
the way I always start with my guests.

I will take you back to the very
beginning, which I believe was Norfolk.

Is that correct?

NICK: That's very true, yes.
Wymondham, Norfolk.

PAUL: At Norfolk.

I suppose I'm intrigued,
if you can remember or recall

a very early theatrical experience
that you went to see.

It could be with school
or with the family.

What effect that might have had on you?

NICK: The terrible effect it had on me.

Do you know it's funny because
when I think back, I think...

But I might have got this completely
wrong, but I believe we went

to the Norwich Theatre Royal as a kid.

I must have been very young.

I'll tell you why I'd remember that
because it was The King and I.

And the big draw was the fact
that I think Yul Brynner

was actually playing the King.

Yeah, I know.

I can remember, obviously,
as a kid, you'd seen him

in The Magnificent Seven and films.

He was always this extraordinary actor
that you'd revere, even at a young age.

But I feel he did a tour of
The King and I when he was,

he must have been quite old at the time.

I can't remember who the lady was,
but he did a tour of it in the UK,

and I'm pretty positive.

Either that, or my memory does not
serve me well, and it was just a film.

I think if I was to go back in history
of Yul Brynner, he did a tour and he went

to Norwich, and I saw him there.

I remember thinking, Oh,
my God, that's an actor.

This is the actor Yul Brynner.

It really affected me.

I remember thinking, I can't believe that
man from that TV is suddenly on stage and

we're watching him do that performance.
PAUL: Exactly.

I suppose, like you said, someone like Yul
Brynner, who is a massive Hollywood star.

NICK: Massive.

PAUL: What's that film he's
in about the sci-fi village?

NICK: Yeah, the Westworld.
PAUL: Westworld, yes.

He's brilliant in that.
NICK: He's utterly brilliant.

PAUL: I suppose seeing him pop up in
your hometown of Norwich must have

been something - and I don't mean this
in any way, it is not a wonderful place.

But the idea that Yul Brynner from
Westworld and the The Magnificent Seven.

NICK: Turn up at Norwich Theatre Royal.

I mean, it's a brilliant theatre.
It's a barn.

It's huge.
He was playing to sell our audiences.

PAUL: I bet he was.

NICK: I mean, if Charlie and Stan can do a tour
around the country, then I suppose

Charlie Chaplin, Stan Laurel,
so can Yul Brynner, if he fancies it.

PAUL: Yeah.
How old would you have been?

NICK: Well, I think I must have been
nine or ten, possibly.

Possibly younger,
but nine or ten, I think.

PAUL: What about some early performance
experience at school or?

NICK: Yeah, I had to be cajoled
into doing something because...

You'd never believe that now.

I had to be cajoled
by a wonderful drama teacher who was also

my French teacher when I was 11, 12.

He obviously did drama at school.

I remember being fascinated.

There was a brilliant lesson where
we had to put hats on and there were

all these different hats lined up and
we had to put these different hats on.

I remember thinking, God,
I want to get the crash helmet.

I didn't get the crash helmet.

I ended up getting the trilby
where I thought, yes, I could

be a gangster, I could be a gangster.

I enjoyed it, and so much so
that I think she saw a slight enthusiasm

and a possible dare I say, talent,
I don't like to use that word.

And said, would you come
and do the school play?

It's going to be the Snow Queen.

And I'd like you to play the storyteller.

I immediately thought, oh, no way.

That's going to be loads
of words, and I'm going to

be in front of the entire school.

I don't fancy it very much,
thanks very much, and said, no.

She said, well,
what are you worried about?

I said, well, I got
to learn all these words.

I don't think I'm very good at that.

She said, well, it's all right.

Because you're the storyteller,
I can put some of the words

in a book and you can carry the...

What a great idea.

Devising from the very early day.

I had this book and she put bits of
the script in that had big long passages.

But of course, I learned
it and I performed it.

I remember a friend of my mum's, Frida
Bonabalo, there we go, a name from the past,

she came up to me afterwards
and said, was very complementary.

I can remember thinking, that's
the first time anyone's ever

been complementary about anything
that I've ever done, whether it be sport

or in this case, it was drama.

That really made me think,
maybe I'm all right at this.

I should possibly pursue it.

Then I didn't pursue it
for another six years.

PAUL: Well, it's interesting,
the early stirings.

Also, I think there's something revealing
about this lesson with all the hats,

because obviously, having collaborated
with you on so many occasions, I've often

forced you to wear about nine
different hats within one production.

Obviously, a seed was
plumped the very early day.

NICK: Of course, I'm always looking for a hat
now whenever I do a performance.

PAUL: That's quite interesting that you have
a little taste of it then, and then

you say you leave it for a while, while
you're doing studies and stuff.

How did it reemerge as a possible idea
of something you could do?

NICK: Well, I think it was...

I went through the stages
of thinking, oh, no, you can't

make a career out of it or whatever.

Then as people were asking you
to do your options in O-Levels and GCSEs

as they are now, I was aiming
towards wanting to be a surgeon.

I thought this would be...
I know, yeah.

That was the other thing I
found very interesting.

I was aiming towards that.

Then I realised how much study
would be involved and decided

that that wasn't for me.

PAUL: You couldn't have all the surgical things
inside your book, Nick.

You'd have to remember.

NICK: I'd have to remember, do you imagine?

Let me just refer to Plexon A The Aorta.

No, I left the surgical and then thought,
I didn't want to be on the stage.

I thought I'd be behind it.

I was probably looking at…

Because I was interested in film and TV,
thinking I might like to be behind

the camera and direct on film or TV.

I got that in mind along the way.

Then again, another teacher
said, would you be in the school play

at the age of 17.

I think through my high school,
I had done little performances, but they

were very small, little, again, weirdly
devised things for my house, as it were.

But yeah, it was Oklahoma.

They asked me to be in Oklahoma
where I had to play the granddad in...

Was it Oklahoma?
It was Oklahoma.

PAUL: You played the grandfather?

NICK: I think I played the grandfather.

Is that right?
Was it the grandfather in Oklahoma?

I think it was.
Or a non-existent part.

Then there was also Adoanni,
the following.

Always a musical, never…

That may be where I
played the grandfather.

Anyway, it suddenly made me
think, maybe I could do this.

Then applied for drama school
at the age of 18 after my A-Levels.

PAUL: Well, obviously, we've chatted
about this on many occasions,

and we'll come to your brilliant work
with us a bit later, but we kind of went

to drama school around a similar time.

You went off to Lamda, is that right?
NICK: That's right, yeah.

Although, funnily enough,
I did actually check out where you went.

I had no idea at the time.

I would have been a year below you.

Yeah, and it was on my options for leaving
A-Levels that I actually looked at.

Because obviously, as you know,
in our year, Middlesex

was obviously me and Hayley.

PAUL: And the year above us was the wonderful
Steve Harper who introduced you and me.

But more of that shortly…

I'm interested in Lamda for a moment
because obviously we know

in drama school they break you
down and hopefully build you back up.

Or leave you broken in some way.

I'm interested, when you were at Lamda,
did you find yourself being cast

in particularly comic roles
or did that arrive later?

NICK: That arrived later, actually.

What was really great about the…

I mean, I was quite young,
so I was 18 when I went, so

I was quite young and naive, possibly.

Not possibly, absolutely very naive.

But it was my first into London as well.

It was quite a big eye-opening experience.

They were very open about casting.

I think in the first year,
you didn't quite do a play as such.

You did bits and bobs.

Actually, I find myself doing Richard
III, I think, at one point.

Was it Lorenzo in...

What was Lorenzo?
In Merchant of Venice, I think.

There were funny roles
in restoration comedy that kept

coming my way a little bit.

But actually, the roles that they
were doing, I think they weren't actually

touching on comedy as much as
they were touching on tragedy and drama.

There wasn't a lot of comedy
going about, to be honest.

Funny, isn't it?

PAUL: Obviously, I absolutely
know you're a master of many

forms, but was comedy something
that appealed to you growing up?

I mean, did you have comic heroes
that you got and liked watching them.

Who were they?
What were your heroes?

NICK: I mean, pretty much Laurel and Hardy.

I remember as a kid, I grew up watching
Laurel and Hardy on a Saturday morning

when they would play two
episodes, and I used to love it.

I'd watch it religiously
and found it utterly hilarious.

Harold Lloyd and people like that.

I think comedy was always
there, and I suppose I have

a silly sense of humour, really.

That's innate.
PAUL: Yes.

NICK: That's innate, isn't it?

I think there was always an element
of looking at the comic side.

Even back when I did the storytelling
The Snow Queen, I think, oh,

God, yeah, there were laughs.

I remember people were laughing.

It's like a drug, isn't it?

We all understand.

When you get an audience to laugh,
it's such a wonderful feeling.

PAUL: Well, we'll come back.
NICK: That kept with me.

PAUL: Yeah, I will definitely come back
to that as we move forward.

Obviously, you go through drama school
and then you go out into

the professional world of show business.

But I think I might be right
in thinking that one of your early

forays, professionally,
was more in the world of music.

I'd just like to play something
if we could for a moment.

♪ Head over heels, head
over heels, high as a kite, high

as a kite, you make Monday more,
I feel like Saturday night ♪

PAUL: Thank you for that.

Thank you, Nick.

We were just listening to Head Over Heels.

NICK: It's a hit. It's a hit.

PAUL: A song of yours.

Now, am I right, Nick.

I'll get your thoughts
on this in a moment.

But was that a song that
you wrote as well as performed?

NICK: No, it wasn't.

No, it was written
by the amazing Don Black.

PAUL: Wow!
NICK: Yeah.

PAUL: My word.
NICK: It was.

PAUL: What pedigree.

My next question was,
did the song in any way

enter the charts in any shape or form?

NICK: It did.
PAUL: Oh, my word.

If you don't mind sharing with us and our
listeners, because I have to admit,

we've had many illustrious guests on this
podcast, Olivier Award winners,

Perrier Award winners,
but I safely say we've never had a guest

who has charted in the British charts.

Which gitty heights did it reach?

NICK: Well, I think it reached
the grand old height of number 46.

PAUL: 46?

NICK: That's my word.

I think the premise was that
if you got past 45, things could suddenly

take a different turn and you could
find yourself having to present that.

Luckily, I didn't manage.

PAUL: Well, we touched on this
your past, a musical career.

I have to ask, given the title
of the podcast, do you have any regrets

that you didn't pursue popular music and
the pop shots as opposed to the stage?

NICK: Purely financial in that respect.

But it's funny because,
yes, there were a few regrets.

I was asked to record that song
because I had a part in a TV series,

which was the first TV series I ever got.

I was playing a guy called Daniel
Dunn, who was the Vicar's son

in this Head Over Heels series,
which was great fun, actually.

It was seven episodes.

It was a very beautiful thing.

Then they suddenly said, well, hang on,
we want to keep it in the family.

My character was a choir boy.

Then in one episode, I don't
think many of your listeners

will ever have watched this...

PAUL: They'll search it out now. They'll search it out.

NICK: He then is transformed
by one of the girls.

It was all about a girl
finishing school in the 1950s.

He's transformed from being
a choir boy into a rock and roll

star, but he doesn't like it very much
and then goes back to being a choir boy.

He doesn't like the life very much.

They wanted to keep it in the family, the
song, a theme song and said, look, would

you mind recording the theme song for us?

Of course, I was quite young at the time.

I went, yeah, absolutely.

I had no idea, no idea
that it would be launched into a CD

and then go onto an album.

The album of Head Over Heels
has got Joey Lee Lewis, Elvis Presley.

At the bottom of it is my name,
which I went, that's very nice to be put

amongst these extraordinary artists.

It's good to take them down a peg
or two with that name at the bottom.

But yeah, it was an extraordinary
experience, but I had no idea

that was going to happen.

My biggest regret, I think, is at
this point in time, I was thinking,

no, but I don't want to…

I was being asked to go
to a events and sing the song.

But whenever they wanted me to sing the
song, they said, you would have to dress

up as Daniel Dunn and wear the blue suede
suit and have your hair in a big quiff.

At that point in time,
I was thinking, yeah, but I'm an actor.

It's under my name, but I'm not
playing the character.

That's the character.
I was being very method about it.

Then I got so like, why are they
making me look like a pop star?

To stop the quiff, I shaved my head
and just went, I will not be…

They're not going to ask
me if I shave my head.

They won't ask me to go and
sing the song in a blue suede suit

because it looks cheap.

I shaved my head and subsequently,
that was the end of that.

However, I did go on to do
a nice panto afterwards.

PAUL: Well, exactly.
NICK: That was my regret.

I shouldn't have done that.

That was a bit silly and again,
rather naive to suddenly go,

I should have ridden the wave.

I think.
PAUL: Well, I don't.

I mean, you'll always
have that, of course.

Now we've shared that many people
will rediscover that or discover that.

NICK: They're on vinyl.

PAUL: It makes me think there was quite a trend,
wasn't there, sometimes, where people

in the show would sing the theme tune.

I think famously, of course,
Dennis Waterman and Minder.

NICK: That's right, yeah.
PAUL: He sang the theme tune to that.

NICK: And Nicolas Lindhurst, of course.
PAUL: Yes, of course.

You're in very esteemed company.

NICK: I'm in very esteemed company.

PAUL: After your chart success, you obviously
fully begin a journey into acting

and what a journey it has been.

Theatres all over the place
and great work, great parts.

Then we meet because I remember Steve,
the late great Steve, was with you in

Improbable's The Theatre of Blood,
and as was Hayley, of course, as well.

NICK: That's right.

PAUL: They both said, there's this
wonderful actor who's in the company.

You really should meet him.

I think it was less about you necessarily
coming from our world, if you like,

all the world we were in.

It was just that you were terrific.

Then we met socially and then I saw you
and I thought, my God, they're right.

This guy, Nick, is amazing.

Then, of course, eventually,
in 2007, I invited you to come and be in

our production of Beauty and the Beast.

NICK: That's it, with the lovely Hayley.

And written, co-written
by the wonderful Carl Gross, who-

NICK: Yes, amazing.

PAUL: Who obviously just wrote our production,
Cat and the Canary, which you were in.

But there was something about your spirit
and your invention that I thought this,

you were so perfect for us in
your generosity and your imagination.

NICK: That's lovely.

PAUL: Then, of course, we've worked
so many times subsequently.

I wanted to come back
to something you said about it.

You mentioned about innate.

You talked about the word innate
in terms of comedy.

Sometimes ask me this, and I know it's
a very difficult question,

but I wanted to get your take on it.

Do you think it is possible for someone

to learn comedy in a way that they can

become very confident and strong in it?

Or do you think it is
something that is more innate?

NICK:That's tricky, isn't it?

Because I think sometimes, yeah,
you're born with this sense of humour

and the ability to make people laugh.
I think that's true.

I think you could...

I mean, everybody
at some point, I think, uniformly

makes somebody laugh at some point.

Whether they find that infectious enough
to continue to strive to do it

is a different thing.

I probably believe some people are born
with funny bones, and some people just

see the world through funny eyes,
in the same way that some people see them

through rose-tinted eyes or whatever.

My daughter made me laugh the other
day, actually, because we were on a bus

coming home from the centre of London.

We looked at a shop, and I won't
explain the joke, but I made

a joke related to another shop
that was next door to it, which we'd just

seen as we passed on the bus.

She turned around and said, how can you
see the funny side in all these things?

I mean, it was just a chemist, daddy?

Why do you see the funny side next to...

How do you see that?

You go, well, it's funny, Tilly.

I said, I think sometimes
that's just what you see.

There's an element in me that sometimes
goes, those funny elements

sometimes just pop out to those
that have that sense of humour,

and you almost can't help yourself.

I sometimes feel I'm very lucky
to have that affliction.

Other times, maybe sometimes
it's inappropriate.

But to teach that, I don't know.

I think there's, I think you can.

I mean, it's so much part
of the timing, isn't it?

There's a timing to a good...

I mean, you always watch
the best comedians and the best actors

that have the extraordinary, the
Steve Carell and Will Ferrell and all of,

even back to the Charlie Chaplin's
and the Laurel and Hardy's.

There is a timing
which is so extraordinary,

and it's such a part of it.

That is a really tricky thing,
I think, to learn.

It's kind of a feeling, isn't it?

PAUL: I suppose also that that is something
that is so personal and particular

to someone, isn't it?
You're right.

NICK: That's right.

PAUL: Although I think your friend of mine,
someone we've worked very closely

with, is a brilliant teacher
of physical comedy is Jos Huben.

NICK: Yes, amazing.

PAUL: What Jos does so extraordinary
is take what someone's

own personal comic instinct is
and explode a technique around that.

NICK: Yes.
I think that's it.

PAUL: More possibility, doesn't it?

NICK: It's in everybody, isn't it?

There is an element of something funny
in everybody, whether they recognise it

or whether you recognise or you don't.

It's tapping into that.

In that respect, I presume it's there
if you tap into it in everybody.

It's just how it manifests itself.
PAUL: Exactly.

The other question, I suppose, I have
is, obviously, I've directed you quite

a lot now over the years
and I've always loved it.

My only, it's not a regret
because we can resolve this,

I would love to play with you.

I've never performed with you.
NICK: Yeah.

PAUL: I'd love to share the same.
That's for another time.

But I'm interested, obviously, I look at
the Cat and the Canary, for those people

who didn't see a brilliant horror comedy
that Carl Grose wrote for us.

You and I chatted early on
in that process through R&D

and my desire to see one actor
play five parts to make it more extreme.

Also a nod towards those older films
with Alec Guinness or Peter Sellers,

that kind of reference.

You brilliantly were up for it.

Not just that show,
lots of shows we've done.

I'm interested in how much do you…

Because I'd provoke you with an idea.

I might say, why don't we try
this or something, and then off you go.

But how much do you kind of sometimes
plan something and how much of it is just

you in the moment trying something?

NICK: Again, I think it's observations.

When you're on the tube,
you're walking around, you see things

that you find funny and you put it
in the library in the back of your head

and go, that's hilarious.
I've got to remember that.

I find myself doing that quite a lot.

Not always using everything, but
because people are inherently priceless,

funny or tragic in whatever respect.

When I see something just
in normal day life that I find either

very sad or very funny or intriguing,
I'll keep that in a library.

Then the provocation is just glorious
because you go, oh, hang on a minute.

This actually works for this character.

This would work
so well for this character.

I feel like sometimes it's
completely in a moment.

There are other times when I'll go home
and be thinking about, well, how can I

make that one different from that one?

What would make it
funny or what seems to be right.

Other times, it's from all the wealth
of films that you've seen over the years

and you think, oh, God,
there's that Scottish doctor that I saw.

Why is it funny or why is it interesting
that he's Scottish?

I sometimes go from an instinct, which
is the first, when I look at the script

or I think, oh, the instinct there,
I'm going to go with that.

That's what I feel I should...

That what I think might be
funny or that might work.

If that doesn't work, then I'll go away,
think about it and come back

with something and go, let me try this.

It's really
a glorious thing to have a rehearsal room

where you're allowed to do that because
sometimes the time restraint or

the certain director is not quite up
for that and thinks you're actually going

to do it a certain way
because you've initialised that and then

you suddenly go, well, no, bear with me.

I'm going to try it out
a few different ways.

You go with the variety
that you've accumulated.

PAUL: I suppose also what I've often
enjoyed working with you is to

give sometimes the smallest provocations.

I remember in our production of Too Clever
by Half, the Ostrovsky Russian comedy.

Again, you brilliantly played
an elderly colonel in in the show.

Throughout the show,
we had a tiger rug on the floor.

I think at one point in the second
half, I said, maybe what about if you had

a slight issue with the tiger rug?

That all I said, I didn't
prescribe what it was, but that then

resulted in obviously wonderful comic
mayhem, which involved you

beating it with your walking stick
and wrestling with it on the ground.

I suppose sometimes, I suppose
a provocation is a little admission

to allow you to go to rift
on something or to go off on something.

NICK: I think that's right, really.

I think I called it a bloody dog as well.
PAUL: Yes, exactly.

Which I thought was priceless.

NICK: But yeah, I think that's right.

I think your provocations are fantastic.

I think that really is what an actor
really requires from a director.

I think to be provoked to try something
and not to be afraid then

to try it, even if it means you
might fall flat on your face.

But it's my biggest regrets
would be those times when I haven't

been allowed to try something.

That's sacrilegious
in the theatre, I think.

PAUL: Well, I totally agree.

There will be many more opportunities
for you to keep trying stuff

with us, Nick, that's for sure.

It's been lovely catching
up and chatting away.

I think it's really fascinating to hear
you talk almost quite technically about

the comedy and how you think about it.

I think that's quite a fascinating insight
But we reach the end of our little chat,

Nick, and I always finish in
the same way, if that's all right.

I asked seven quickfire questions
to which you just give your first

and most spontaneous response.

NICK: Okay.

PAUL: These are tailored a little bit
to yourself and also a little bit

towards looking back over
the Christmas break we just had.

But here we go.
Lee Evans or Norman Wisdom?

NICK: Lee Evans.
PAUL: Panettone or Christmas Cake?

NICK: Oh, I don't like either.
PAUL: Oh, that's fine.

To take you back to your chart success
Slate's Merry Christmas Everyone

or Wham's Last Christmas?

NICK: Slate.
Merry Christmas, Everyone.

PAUL: The Norfolk Broad or the Amalthy Coast?
NICK: The Amalthy Coast.

PAUL: Prat fall or double take?

NICK: Double take.

PAUL: Nina Simone or Ella Fitzgerald?

NICK: Ella Fitzgerald.

PAUL: John Bonham or Keith Moon?

NICK: John Bonham.

PAUL: On that brilliant Led Zeppelin
note, Nick, it's been lovely catching up.

Let's have a glass of wine soon.

NICK: Yeah, absolutely, Paul.
Thanks so much.

Love to the family.
All the best.

NICK: Privilege.
Thank you.

PAUL: Take care.

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