PAUL: Hello, and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of
Told by an Idiot, and this is a podcast

where I talk to friends and colleagues
delving into what made them

the person they are today.

PAUL: Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is a director
who explores theatre making

as a radical form of community activism.

She's Director of Public Acts
at the National Theatre and

Associate Artist at Company Three.

Her work includes
The Enormous Crocodile Leeds Playhouse

and Regents Park, The Odyssey National
Theatre, and Yoko One's Bells for Peace,

Manchester International Festival.

Welcome, Emily Lim.

EMILY: Hello. Thanks for having me, Paul.

PAUL: Not at all.
It's really nice to see you again.

We spent some time together, which
we might touch on, earlier this year,

which was very interesting and rewarding.

I enjoyed it very much.

But it's great that you're here.

I won't reveal where you're sitting.

I think I'll leave
that to the imagination.

That's going to pique people's interest.

EMILY: Well, you have to now reveal it.
We have to.

PAUL: Okay, I will reveal it.
Emily is sitting in…

I don't know his official title anymore.

I want to say
departing Artistic Director's seat

at the National Theatre, Rufus's seat.

Who knows where this would lead.

Anyway, I won't dwell on that.

I'll take you back, if I may,
Emily, which I do with all my guests,

to the beginning.

I wonder if you could remember the first
or a very early theatre experience

that you saw, a live performance.

Was it with family, was it
school, or what might it have been

and what impact did it have?

EMILY: I don't know if this is the earliest,
but it's one of my favourites.

It was a really early one because it's one
of those ones that's clear and hazy

enough to know that it was before I was
holding proper thorough memory of things.

It was a production of
Andrew Lloyd Webbers Joseph

and the Technicolor Dreamcoat.

I was lucky enough to go and see some of
these big musicals through my childhood.

But this one was really special
because my father is Malaysian-Chinese,

and he's one of six, and all
of his siblings still live in Malaysia.

We would have many happy memories
going over there as children

to connect with our family over there.

My family in Malaysia
were obsessed with musicals and

Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals.

So we would spend late evenings
singing into the night.

We also had a hilarious moment.

We were walking around a Buddhist temple
in Penang one time, and I just

remember my auntie and my uncle
singing The King and I, but at the top

of their lungs with all of us.

And has been told off by the people
in the temple for being too noisy.

So this was a huge part our joy,
our shared joy and connexion

with our family over there, which
was all quite unexpected in some ways.

Anyway, we went to see this production
and it was very special

and it was very memorable
to me because my uncle had come over.

He only came over once, I think,
and has only been over.

He's been over twice, and this was the
first time and only time in my childhood.

Really big deal that he came over with
my cousins, and he and one of my cousins

who can't have been more than about seven
or eight at the time, maybe a little bit older,

I was probably five or six,
and he was maybe eight or nine.

They were sat in front of me
and the lights were going down,

and that for me is always the most
electric and terrifying,

if it's my own show, but the most electric
moment in any theatrical experience,

because it's so full of possibility
and it's so full of anticipation

and hopefulness, and
it's such a visceral moment.

Anyway, and I remember sharing
that with them and they'd come from

the other side of the world and never
been to see this show in this way

in the big shiny West End before.

It was very, very special.

I was there with my...

I think my dad was there, and I was there
with my siblings and then sat behind them

and feeling how much this meant,
particularly to my youngest cousin

who never experienced this before.

Very, very special.

PAUL: Well, that's an amazing story as well
in the sense of the fact that the works

of Andrew Lloyd Webber were
quite significant within your family.

It was not a random trip to the theatre.

It obviously meant an enormous amount,
given the fact they were singing it

in Buddhist temples in Penang.

EMILY: That's right.
It was, it's a really... We would...

yeah, many, many memories
of us all sat around the table.

Two of my cousins do a particularly
incredible rendition of Valjean

and Javert's duet from Les Misérables.

I mean, that all works.

It's very big in my family.

PAUL: Well, I have to, obviously, this leads me
to ask the question, what did you

offer the family sing-along.

What would have been your number
of choice, solo or duet

or what would it have been?

EMILY: I think you're going to enjoy this answer.

I'm one of four siblings, Paul
Hunter, and my two older sisters

were absolutely amazing.

My eldest sister, particularly,
in rallying us as kids.

Our parents would just let us
charge off and we would spend hours

in the worlds of our own imagination
and her imagination making plays together

and recreating things we'd seen,
whether on television or whatever.

My big sister was very good at corralling
everyone and doing the directing.

My second sister was a
really amazing natural performer.

My little brother was often relegated to,
I can't believe I'm sharing all of this,

but I love it, was relegated
to being the dog, usually, the dog.

PAUL: A good part though,
good part being the dog.

EMILY: My mum used to sometimes have
to debut as a tree so she could hold

the hand of the dog if he was...
PAUL: Yes

EMILY: But then, Paul, I was really...

There's this one video that maybe says it
best, where everyone is doing their thing

and doing their thing very competently,
and I am standing in the corner with

a tray that has no explanation, and I am
banging the tray and stomping my foot.

And when everything else is happening
and this flow of the scene is happening

and things are starting and stopping
and evolving and the story is happening.

I am just there banging my tray,
and I don't stop banging the tray,

and I look incredibly serious about
why I'm banging the tray, but nobody...

That is, the tray is serving
no dramaturgical purpose.

There is no reason as to
why I'm there banging the tray.

I think, what am I saying?

I think what I brought to the party
was maybe very little at that stage.

PAUL: Well, I don't know, obviously,
inevitably, given some of the things

that interest us as Told by an Idiot,
the banging, the repeated banging

of the tray would be something
I was certainly open to exploring, sure.

But however, that's an early performance
of yours, corralled by your

obviously dynamic older sister.

Did you go on to perform at school or was
performing something that interested you

or was banging the tray, that was it?

EMILY: No, I did.

I love being in plays and was very lucky.

They had some really great
opportunities to be in plays at school.

I was reflecting on this, and even
though I was in the plays, I was often

cast as the people who told
other people what to do in the play.

PAUL: She's very Brechtian.
EMILY: It is very Brechtian.

So in James and the Giant Peach
I was the evil Aunt Spiker.

Then in this very quite strange Victorian
school play called The Burst and Dump.

Have you ever heard of this?

I played one of the very strict
Victorian teachers in primary school

and various other roles.

So, yes, I did really enjoy.

I think the first part I played was
the older school were doing a version of

the magic flute, and they needed a load
of cute kids to come and be animals.

And I think I had my face
painted like a fox and was a cute animal.

But I did do plays.

I was never particularly good, but I did-

PAUL: And did that desire or interest
in performing, did that translate

outside of school as well?

Was there youth theatres or anything
like that, or was it just a school thing?

EMILY: No, I didn't do youth theatres.

If anything, I did quite a lot of music.

PAUL: Okay.

EMILY: Music is a really important part
of my work now still, I think.

I think I actually came, I was probably
expressing myself more creatively

through my music at that time.

So the real interest in theatre was a slow
burn, but came to the fore a bit later.

I did do I did a drama, GCSE.

Again, it's so interesting
because I remember the thing that most

ignited me during that process
was the bit where we started to

understand and learn about devising.

And having a very clear
sense, we were devising something.

And I just had a moment
where I just went, I know which side

of this I'd rather be on.

And I'd really love to be the person
on that side that's helping

to craft and shape and hold people
and grow where this...

Sense where this can grow
and lead where this can grow,

rather than being the person
that's being looked at and didn't...

Yeah.

PAUL: What it's interesting you say that about
the GCSE and the discovery of devising

and then obviously the journey towards
the work that you've ended up making.

Obviously, you know this, and I'm
passionate about the notion that all the

best theatre is an act of collaboration,
and your work is large, the notion

of what it means to collaborate.

I I suppose
that sense of rather than claiming

the vision of one person
that's interpreting it,

the notion of devising and go 'Hey,
we're all doing this and we're all part

of this kind of...' Was
that the beginnings of this notion

of collaboration or did you not
even think about that, really?

You just enjoyed being
part of a team and so.

EMILY: Yeah, I think that was probably
a few steps more profound

than I was at the time.

I don't think I joined all
of those dots, but maybe you're right

on more of a subconscious level.

And absolutely what you say is true.

I think the theatre that I've always
been most drawn to as a maker

and as an audience member, though
I really respect and love other tastes

and styles, but is work that feels...

Work that's operating on a very

sensory and a visceral level and work
that feels like it's pulling together all

different forms of making and creating,
whether that is music and

movement and bending and shaping and using
story in an unusual way or

a less conventional way.

I was never most drawn to, and I don't
use this word in a derogatory way at

all, but I wasn't most
drawn to more conventionally

performed a delivered play text.

PAUL: The journey towards directing,
did you go to university?

Did you go to study
directing in any shape or form?

EMILY: No, I didn't.

I directed some shows at university,
and that was such a joy, and that was

very formative, getting to mess around.

I always think it's true
for lots of people, isn't it?

When you don't know anything, you're often
at your freest and your best.

I didn't know what on earth
I was doing, and it was incredibly fun.

The first thing I directed was, I just
went and pulled a load of things off the

shelf because I thought 'Oh, come on'.
Also, it wasn't getting cast in anything.

Classic.

Wasn't getting cast in anything.

It was like, screw this.

I've always wanted to have
a go at doing it myself.

Went and pulled a of books off the drama
section of a bookshop and found

Under Milk Wood and went, hold on a second.

This feels like an invitation.

This is so exciting and it feels
like there's space for me within this to

imagine and to interpret and world build.

I think that's a real theme
of the work that I'm most interested

in making to world build around
these words as a starting offer.

I suppose it's interesting you're talking
about devising because that really is

a text where you feel like you're in real
direct collaboration Dylan Thomas,

I think, because it is not clear how
you're going to realise

that world and his language.

I haven't talked about it for ages,
but in live space with a live audience.

So I did that and it felt great
being able to be in that space

of working very collaboratively
with a cast of actors, but also

being the person who was ultimately
whittling and steering the ship gently.

PAUL: Did you feel, that's interesting,

because as you say that, I don't
know it terribly well, but when I think

of Under Milk Wood, am I right
that it says a play for voices?

EMILY: Yes, I think you are right.

PAUL: I think it's very interesting that notion
because, of course,

he was an astonishing poet
and everything, so I think of the voice.

But it's interesting when you have that
and then you think about the visual

and how that manifestsates itself
in the visual storytelling.

As you go through your university time,
directing and everything, did you then

feel, oh, I need to go and study
directing specifically, or did you just

go on to make work and get going?

EMILY: Yeah, I think because two
things were happening.

One was a real falling really in love
with this idea of making theatre

that connected right back to those
early formative experiences I had

of feeling the prickle on my neck as
the lights went down and a big show

in the West End or whatever
it was we were seeing.

Then the other was a real commitment
to and passion for social justice work.

I could see really clearly the change
that I wanted to make in the world.

Then I wanted to work out how theatre
could be the means by which I did that.

I have a thing that I love and I have
a change that I want to affect

and I want to try and understand how
these two things can come together.

Actually, when I left university, my main
mission was to understand who was sitting

and the companies that were sitting
in the middle of that Venn diagram.

I came across, I remember seeing,
I went to Edinburgh once and I remember

seeing the Chicken Shed show.

Then went to see another of their shows
back in their Enfield home.

The feeling of sitting there watching 400
young people emerging on stage to do this

retelling of A Midsummer Night's Dream
in an incredibly radically inclusive way.

An intergenerational company, because
they don't just work with young people,

of course, was incredibly eye-opening.

I think that was probably the first
example of seeing a piece of theatre that

felt like this is what community can look
like on stage, and this is how the ideas

of social justice and a community that centres

around celebrating its compassion
and its care and its empathy

more than its competitiveness or its
difference, or

its negatively held difference.

This is what this can be
and this is what this can look like.

I went in search of opportunities to then
throw myself into as many different social

change contexts and work with lots
of different grassroots community

organisations and arts organisations
and theatre organisations that were

stepping into those worlds and delivering
really quality,

brilliant work in those worlds.

And then there came a point where I went,
hang on a second, I really need to build

the theatre muscle now, too, because it's
not good enough for me to just learn.

I wanted to learn how to work with
as many people as possible in as many

different community settings as possible.

But then I knew if I want to make theatre
and if my whole thesis

is that the quality of the theatre can
and must be excellent to affect

the change, because unless we're all there
being given the chance to be magnificent,

nobody's going to have this ultimate...

No one's going to see their ultimate
and their maximum possibility as

an individual or as part of a collective.

I've got to go and really
build those theatre-making muscles.

PAUL: Where did you go?

EMILY: Well, it's interesting talking to you
from Rufus Norris's office.

I feel like we have to declare
that Rufus is away, which is why

I'm getting to use his office.
He's not here as well.

I had done a bit of assisting, but I think
my real step up, I was lucky enough

to do the National Theatre Directors
course, which is an incredible two weeks

of master classes,
which really blew my mind.

Then I got a job staff directing on
Rufus's Behind the Beautiful

Forevers, and then had another staff
directing gig with him and started to...

Yeah, those were two really big
formative training moments,

but alongside that, I had been doing
bits and pieces, bits going on whatever.

I was part of the Young Victor Genesis
Directors Programme.

I was doing as many workshops
and things that I could do with them.

They ran so many brilliant free classes.

PAUL: Yes, they did.

EMIlY: It's nice reflecting back on it.

I did a three-day workshop with
David Harradine from Fevered Sleep.

PAUL: Oh, yeah, of course.

EMILY: Which is one of the really formative ones.

Because I remember sitting there
and him saying, we make work

that's actually much more
about atmosphere and tone and feeling.

Me feeling a permission for the first time
that the work that I felt like

I wanted to make was work that
was legitimate and that other people,

really great people like him,
were saying, that's what we do, too.

We start with pictures and images
and senses rather than words on a page.

Anyway, getting distracted.
But yes.

PAUL: No, that's not.
That's a very

EMILY: I was curating for myself a collection
of experiences that I hoped would both

build my context and understanding
of the social sector and would build

my muscles as a theatre director.

It was opportunities
like the National Theatre Director's

course, lecture, and then meeting Rufus.

A very formative moment I haven't talked
about, which was meeting Ned Glasier from

Islington Community Theatre, which is now
an amazing company called Company Three.

And understanding how you could
bring these worlds together that has led

me ultimately to where I am now, I think.

PAUL: That's a really fascinating journey.

Were you at the same time, not necessarily
consciously, as you were going

on this journey, were you also gathering
collaborators along the way, people who

you were connecting to and that you would
carry on to the next thing together?

How did your collaborators
form around you or you with them?

EMILY: Yeah, it's a great question.

Well, Ned and I collaborated on several
things together, and we made Brainstorm

together, which is one of the pieces
of work that I'm proudest of, I think.

It took several years to make.

It's a piece about adolescent neuroscience
that we made with 10 teenagers.

Initially, it was made with
about 30 teenagers from our company,

and it now has a life of its own.

We published a version of it,
which many, many youth theatres

have interpreted in their own way
all over the world, which is so humbling.

We worked together a bit, having met
through that company and realised we

had really aligned values.

I learned so much from Ned's brilliant
practise and his advocacy and the way

that he was able to strive for this
incredible artistic quality and bringing

together really top quality artists whilst
dedicating the practise to this

superbly exciting, dynamic,
committed group of young people.

But the main holding of the space,
the reason we were all there to make

theatre and to unite under that shared
purpose was so that we could create a safe

and connected
environment full of belonging

and discovery for these
young people in the night.

Then I met, and Chris Bush is another one
of you who we met through...

Chris Bush was working at Sheffield
People's Theatre and had written

the incredible mysteries play there.

Huge, amazing community show.

The wonderful Lindsay Turner
connected Chris and I really early on

when I was starting to think about...

The piece of the puzzle
I haven't explained is that Rufus

invited me to spend...

I got a residency here shortly after
Brainstorm when Rufus took over

the building and the provocation was,
come and spend a couple of years here,

growing your own practise
and understanding how really high-quality

participatory work with deep,
meaningful social impact

can cut right through the heart
of who the National Theatre is.

Lindsay and I connected, sorry, Lindsay
connected Chris and I around that time

as we were starting to think
about what we might grow in Public Acts

and the collaboration with Chris and then
Jim Fortune, our dear mutual friend.

Those collaborators came on board
at the start of that journey

have travelled really since.

PAUL: One of the things that
culminated in was your version

of The Odyssey, is that right?

EMILY: That's right, yes.

Last year, as the fifth anniversary of the project,

we did our biggest wildest, zaniest project yet,

which was green-lit during COVID,
which still floors me, actually,

the tenacity and the faith in the
incredibly radical commitment to our

values that was shown by the team
here who were saying, yes, go for it.

Let's make that happen at such a time.

We told the story of The Odyssey in five
parts with five different communities and

artists local to them across the country.

The first four episodes happened.

The first episodes happened in Stoke-on-Trent

by the brilliant Restoke Theatre Company.

PAUL: Oh, Restoke, amazing.

EMILY: Wonderful Restoke.

PAUL: Yeah, we've worked with Restoke.
They're brilliant.

EMILY: Amazing.
Yeah, absolutely amazing.

PAUL: Isn't that building amazing
where they're based?

EMILY: It's incredible.

PAUL: It's extraordinary.
EMILY: They're so great.

PAUL: And the best café.
The food is amazing in that café.

EMILY: Great, but the best café.

PAUL: Sorry.

EMILY: It's a great Restoke tangent.

Then we went to...

The second part was a cast in Doncaster,
another amazingly inspiring organisation

who we've all got with for
a couple of years.

Then the third part was a Trowbridge
town hall down in the southwest.

PAUL: Oh, yeah, Wiltshire.

EMILY: Yeah, directed by the one
and only, Jessie Jones.

PAUL: Oh, brilliant.

EMILY: Then we did the fourth part
up in Sunderland, where we're still

working now, which is wonderful.

Then I directed the fifth part
back here at the National

with 160 company members who came
from all of those different places.

Our first show for Public Act was
Pericles, which we did with 225 people

from across London in the Olivier.

And I said to Rufus, I said,
if we're coming back, I really

want us to come and do a show here again.

But if we're going to do another
Public Act show here, it's got, it's got

to be a national community on that stage.

We thought about making that happen,
and I had the most incredible team

of people to help make that.

PAUL: Look, it sounds extraordinary.
I was interested.

I was watching a bit as a part
of my research for our chat.

I was watching an interview
with you, and I was interested where

you said initially you weren't so keen
on the idea of The Odyssey, I suppose,

because it's such a classic thing.

You said we went right away
from it initially going,

we don't want to do this.
It's done a blah, blah, blah.

Then eventually, you talk
about returning to it.

It's interesting, isn't it?

When we move away from something
for whatever reason,

but then somehow we find, I suppose,
like The Odyssey, we find our way back.

EMILY: Yeah.

I think we were cooking it up during
COVID, me and Nina Steiger and Chris Bush

and Jim on separate Zoom calls.

We just couldn't get away from the fact
that everybody was in such a moment

of reflection on the idea of resilience
and what it took for communities

and individuals to be resilient and
to understand who we are separately

and together,
and crossing distance and overcoming

and endurance and all of these things.

And Odysseus being the hero
who is considered to be the most

resilient, the most enduring, we just
kept coming back and going,

hang on a second, this is the story for now.

PAUL: And it resonates for a reason.

EMILY: It really resonates for a reason.

And I think we're always looking,
and we talk a lot with the project

about idea of unity through radical joy.

I think joy is often spoken about
as a soft and squishy thing, but actually

it's a deeply powerful force.

Brené Brown, who's one of my favourite
thinkers, she talks about joy

as engendering belonging.

For me, joy is something that is a really
robust muscular force in the world and

a power in the world that is worth giving
yourself to and dedicating yourself to.

Anyway, we like to find work
that can hold joy and can hold

our culture of care and the culture
of inclusion and joy that we work within.

But that also, of course, if you
make space for joy, you make space and

capacity for sadness and for grief and
for loss and for all of the other things.

The Odyssey as a story
held holds great darkness.

It holds huge loss, and it's
that emotional journey of somebody going

through huge loss but coming back to
themselves and coming back to their home.

Ultimately, in our version,
in Chris's beautiful adaptation,

a mother coming back to her son
was something that we never questioned.

Once we'd committed to it, it always
felt like the story for that moment.

PAUL: Spending a very brief time for a week
in a room with you and Chris, I think

their writing is so wonderfully human
and moving, and I can see exactly why you

would be drawn to collaborating around
it, given how extraordinary it sounds.

This might sound a strange question, and
you don't strike me as someone who has

a lot of regrets, but was there anything
that you wanted to achieve as part

of that project that you couldn't?

Do you have any regrets around that?

Or was it it's just much bigger
than that, than stuff

that didn't make it to the end?

EMILY: With The Odyssey, specifically?

PAUL: Yeah.

EMILY: I think the honest answer
with that particular project,

and I have plenty of regrets with other
projects, but with that particular one,

the tidal wave of support
and expertise and love and generosity

and determination that we were met
with at every stage from every person

who chose to jump on board and take
the massive leap of faith to decide

that this impossible thing was going to be
something we were going

to make possible together.

I think that really was the defining mode.

We all spent a lot of time
during that project and still

do now on reflecting back on it.

Of course, not everything was perfect.

There were loads
of learnings within there.

But we spent a lot of time collectively
as this huge team of people

from across the country
feeling really, really humbled and amazed

that we were getting to do this thing
and that we were connecting with this.

Just Restoke being one example,
Claire and Paul from Restoke are amazing

community members all over the country.

It was the first time I got to collaborate
with the extraordinary Dan Canham,

who's become one of my most important
collaborators and friends, choreographer,

movement director,
who I know you know well and who we're

now, I'm lucky enough to be
making several other things with.

It was just the professional actors
who we got to work with,

Sharon Duncan-Brewster, Zubin-
PAUL: Tarinn Callender.

EMILY: Tarinn Callender, Amy Booth-Steel,
this incredible group of humans

pulling in the same direction,
committing to these big ideas of hope

and radical inclusion and joy and how we
can celebrate and provoke ideas about

who we are as individuals and communities
when we come together through the shared

purpose of making an amazing piece
of theatre together and telling

a story of home and belonging.

I think this probably sounds like a very
romantic view back on it all,

but it really was the case that during it,
we just kept pinching ourselves and going,

I can't believe we're all lucky enough
to be able to be doing this

with this group of people.

And that's nothing to do with me
and everything to with

the people that we managed.

PAUL: Well, I think it has a little bit to do
with the girl that stood in the corner

banging the tin tray repeatedly
was clearly off to something.

I think it takes an enormous amount
of courage, skill, and generosity

to bring something together
on the scale and depth that you have.

You should take credit for that.
That is for sure.

It's been really lovely chatting, Emily.

I hope you like your new office
that you're now squatting in.

EMILY: It's feeling very comfortable, Rufus.
I'm just saying.

PAUL: You look very relaxed there.

I always end these chats with
a round of quick fire questions.

EMILY: Okay!

PAUL: Which you don't need to think about,
you just say the first thing

that comes into your head in response
to these questions, Emily.

On the subject of The Odyssey,
we start with myths.

Orpheus and Eurydice or Cupid and Psyche.

EMILY: Orpheus and Eurydice every time.

PAUL: Have you seen a movie
called Portrait of a Lady on Fire?

EMILY: No, but I've heard of it-

PAUL: You should, that's a brilliant version
of that myth, actually.

It's a wonderful film.
Anyway, moving on.

The next question,
Caryl Churchill or Sarah Kane?

EMILY: I'm not supposed to tell you
why, but Caryl Churchill.

PAUL: Okay.
Movies- My Neighbour Totoro or Toy Story?

EMIlY: This is terrible.

I haven't seen Totoro, so Toy Story.

PAUL: Well, yes, great.
Toy Story is brilliant.

No worries.
EMILY: But Studio Ghibli, otherwise.

PAUL: Karaoke or Pub quiz?

EMILY: This is a very relevant question
from you, Paul Hunter, given what

we were doing in the room together.

Karaoke, karaoke.

PAUL: What would your song of a choice be?
EMILY: Actually, sorry.

No, not karaoke.
For myself-

PAUL: Oh, pub quiz.

EMILY: Pub quiz for myself,
but as a form, karaoke.

PAUL: Karaoke, pub quiz.
Very good.

London or Paris?
EMILY: London.

PAUL: The scarecrow or the cowardly lion?

EMILY: Oh, great question.

Scarecrow was always
my favourite in that film.

PAUL: I see.

I was always cowardly lion
because I thought the the part

is so wonderful if anyone is listening.

Lady Gaga or Beyoncé?
EMILY: Beyoncé.

PAUL: Emily, it's been an absolute joy.

Let's meet for a glass of something
or a coffee or something at some point.

And chat more.
Have a lovely day.

EMILY: Thank you so much.
PAUL: Bye-bye.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this
Idiot podcast, please spread the word.