PAUL: Hello, and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of
Told by an Idiot, and this is a podcast

where I talk to friends and colleagues
delving into what made them

the person they are today.

Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is an award-winning
and ground-breaking theatre director.

Her work spans text, devising,
immersive technologies, and

the integration of creative access.

Recent productions include The Duchess
of Malfi at Shakespeare's Globe and

Dead Body in Taos at Wilson's Musical.

She is now also the new Artistic
Director of the Unicorn Theatre.

Please welcome Rachel Bagshaw.

Hello, Rachel.
RAHCHEL: Hello.

Thank you so much, Paul.

Lucky to be here.

PAUL: Well, it's really nice to have you.

I know...
Well, I don't know.

I've never done it, but I imagine taking
over a building takes over all your time.

So I'm very glad that you were able to
share half an hour with us.

We will, of course,
come to your exciting new job.

But I'll kick off the way
I always do with my guests.

I take them back to very first
early theatrical experiences.

Or how should I put this?

Earliest memory of seeing
something, theatre-wise.

Was that with school or family?
Do you remember?

What was that?
RACHEL: Yeah, a little bit of both.

I was really lucky to grow up in a
quite randomly in a little village

in Yorkshire that has about,
I think when I grew up, three or four

resident arts companies in the village.

So my early arts memories are of a big
lantern making festival that happened in

our village, which was a type of theatre.

There's an old myth about the moon
and the canal.

It was the moon, canal, and smugglers, and
it's all dark, nefarious acts at night.

And every year, the village would
have this big lantern-making festival.

So there would be a great big moon lantern
that's made and floated down the canal as

a big piece of performance that happens.

And then we make lanterns
and parade around the village And

the whole thing ends in a big party.

Those were some of my early
performance memories.

PAUL: Wow.
That's amazing.

That's very sophisticated.

Compared to my own or many
guests, they often cite someone

on stage in a pantomime throwing sweets
at them or something like that.

RACHEL: And that too.

PAUL: I have to ask, where is this village
that had four resident art companies?

RACHEL: It's in West Yorkshire.
So you might have heard.

Have you heard of the company Mikron?
Yes.

So we were the village along from
Marsden, which is where Mikron are based.

And Huddersfield, which is
the nearest town, has obviously got big

arts connections.
PAUL: Yes.

I think of West Yorkshire
in general as a very creative place.

RACHEL: It really is.

PAUL: I remember meeting my partner
when she lived in Hebden Bridge,

and I was very taken by the
immense cultural things going on

in Hebden Bridge, as you're well aware.

Anyway, we might return to West Yorkshire.

So that's where you grew up within
quite a cultural world, I suppose.

What about early performances yourself?

Were you into performing
when you were little?

RACHEL: I was.
I did.

I mean, I grew up definitely in
a cultural place, but actually

not from a family that is
particularly connected to the arts.

Certainly, my parents were keen that
we had exposure to it, but it wasn't

a theatrical house in
any way, shape or form.

But I think I was probably actually
a very early director more than I was

a performer, so I definitely did perform.

But actually, I was that annoying child
that be like, Let's make a show.

Let's do a show from really early on,
from being about six or seven.

I have friends who have some
fairly terrible memories of me

[giving them] enforced
theatre experiences of their own.

PAUL: Did you have siblings
that you roped in as well?

RACHEL: Yeah, I've got a younger sister who was
also very much made to be in the shows.

PAUL: Was there a theme to this
early work, or was it very eclectic?

RACHEL: Oh, eclectic.

Definitely eclectic.

Quite wide-ranging.

I was quite into my musical theatre.

It usually involved a song,
but when did it not?

PAUL: Well, actually, it's funny that.

Obviously we'll come on to
your professional area in a bit.

But if I think, as I have been doing,
thinking about your work,

I think eclectic is a really good...

I like it as a word, but I think it's
quite a good word to think about what you

do because you're hard to pin down,
which is a good thing as well.

So you obviously had that
from a very early age.

But I read somewhere, it
may have been in an interview,

that you were quite a keen dancer
at one point, or you liked dancing.

Is that right?
RACHEL: Yeah, very much so.

Actually, again, I mean, theatre was
a part of what I grew up doing, but I

did a lot of dance and I also did
a lot of music growing up.

So I did a lot of contemporary dance.

I also played cello and I sang a lot.

So I spent certainly my teenage years
going "Oh, I don't know which of these

different paths it might be."
And definitely knew I wanted to be

in the performing arts
in some way, shape or form.

But what it was, I wasn't totally sure.

So floated around all of them.
PAUL: That's interesting.

So again, like myself and lots of people
around your teenage years,

it starts to become maybe more of a thing
about "Oh, how could this happen?" Or

"maybe could I do this?" And how did
that come about,

when it went from a passion
to something where you thought "Actually,

I think I want to do this"?

Was there other people
involved inspiring you?

Or how did it become a reality, I suppose?

RACHEL: Yeah, I think.

Definitely when I was at sixth form
college, I was really lucky that I went

to a college that took the arts
very seriously and placed a lot of...

It's a very academic college, but actually
it had a lot of space and scope for

performance and making work.

And I think I knew then that I wanted to
certainly study it, and I still didn't

really know what I wanted exactly to do.

And so I ended up doing a Theatre and
Music [degree], a more academic course

rather than drama school at that stage.

So quite fairly academic,
but still very heavy on performance.

And I went to Lancaster, which is a very
experimental course, quite wide-ranging

in the experiences that we had.

And that was amazing because we had a
huge amount of devised work, huge amount

of contemporary experimental [work].

And obviously, some great companies have
come out of Lancaster, like

Imitating the Dog and Andrew Quick's
work and various other folk.

But also there, because there's a theatre
at the university campus, I saw Forced

Entertainment for the first time and
Improbable were touring there.

And I actually don't think I
saw you, but I'm sure you guys

must have performed there as well.
PAUL: We did.

It was a great space to come.

And I think
because of that culture of those

companies, you really felt like you were
going into a really fascinating place,

not just where work had come out of it,
but a very sophisticated audience who we

used to see really interesting stuff.

So no, that sounds...

And I know many great performers
who were at Lancaster, my generation,

Amanda Haddingue and people like this,
and Neil Ashdown, and great performers.

So that's interesting.

And were you directing
when you were there?

RACHEL: Yeah.

So part of the directing came about
having been the bossy child

that made people do shows.

And I did direct bits and pieces.

So I knew it was something
I was really interested in.

But then I had an accident when I was 18.

So I think I, up to that point, still
thought "Oh, gosh, I'm not sure which way

any of this is going to take me." I still
really actually was quite interested

in maybe following music as well.

I went to university
thinking something in the art,

maybe it's theatre, maybe it's music.

I'm not really sure.

But I'd had this accident just
before I went to university,

and that completely shifted everything,
actually, because I went to university

with a bit of a limp, essentially, and
finished university as a wheelchair user.

Everything I knew about myself
as a performer or as a maker, but

also as a cellist, because I couldn't
really play the cello for very long by

the time I was at university.

So everything shifted.

And I found myself
in first year making decisions about

what role I would play in devising
theatre based on what I felt like I, in

inverted commas, could and couldn't do.

And I didn't do things like
I didn't do dance at university because

I thought I can't do dance anymore.

So it really shifted and changed how
I thought of myself as a theatre maker

through those years of university.

Again, it's always fascinating to
revisit that and think "What would I...

What would have happened had
that accident not have happened?"

If that hadn't happened and
it hadn't shaped you, I then became...

I might well have been sitting
in a very different seat right now.

PAUL: I don't know.

Well, it's obviously an extraordinary
series of events in your life.

And obviously, I'm conscious of that.

And I read, I was reading a chat
that you were having with Jenny Sealey

from Graeae, and you were both talking.

And I think you said something like this,
I stayed in a non-disabled environment

for such a long time so I didn't have to
confront the change in my circumstances.

And I suppose I was intrigued
because I want to talk about a show which

was obviously an extraordinary show for
The Shape of Pain that you made.

And in that statement of yours, was
it a gradual shift of change?

You say you inhabited
that space for a long time.

Was it a gradual shift or was it
also to do with you wanting to make work

about what had happened to you?

RACHEL: Yeah, all of those things
all at once and one at a time.

PAUL: That's a good title.

All those things at once, one at a time.
Anyway, sorry.

Carry on.

RACHEL: I think
I've had this very strange clinging

on to a sense of myself pre-accident all
the way through university,

and then I had to have a bit of time out,
but I went to drama school and did

a postgraduate directing course, I went to
Mountview, and I clung on at that stage.

I just fought it and fought
it and fought it.

And I think now about what I put
myself through and put my body through,

even just trying to get through
that nine months of drama school,

it was ridiculous, and certainly not what
I would encourage anybody to do now.

I would be horrified.

I met my early 20s self and
heard what she was proposing to do.

Then I, again, I just
didn't see myself as disabled.

I think some of that's to do with
something that kept shifting.

I kept thinking it was
going to get better.

I kept thinking it was going to go away.

Then you go another year
and another year and you

realise it's not going to go away.

But actually this thing that then became
inescapably part of my identity,

I think I was still looking at
where I perceived the intersection

of the world and disability.

I don't know if I fit in that either.

I don't quite know where I fit.

So I spent quite a bit of time going,
I don't fit here and I don't fit there.

Which of the boxes
should I try and put myself in?

And yeah, pushing myself to stay
working in, I think, conditions and

systems that didn't work for my body.

But I just thought that that's
what directing was.

I thought that's what you had
to do, and you had to do it

a certain way, and you had to stick
to what everyone describes it as being.

And so I kept on trying to just
push myself to be in those boxes

for quite a long time.

PAUL: I think there's so much pressure,
isn't it, around what things should be or

are considered to be or what there are.

And I imagine that must have been
enormous pressure on you.

And then I'm assuming
the liberation of going,

actually, I can define what this is.

I don't have to have it defined for me.

And then also,
I suppose, again, this touches on what I

was saying earlier about the eclectic
thing, that your work's hard to define.

I mean that as a compliment.

I mean, that as an absolute
compliment, because it's not

where you go "Oh, it's the same.

We've seen this".

You go "Oh, I didn't quite
expect that or this".

And I wonder if those two things
are connected as well, the actual

work itself and you
redefining what a director is or what

you feel a director can be, I suppose.
RACHEL: I think so.

Yeah.

I think I've increasingly I think...

Again, I spent certainly my 20s
going, "Oh, I have to be

a certain type of director.

I have to fit into a certain mould." But I
don't feel like I fit into that mould.

I'm trying to push against that and try
and work out what I could do about trying

to change what that mould could be.

I had a stint at Graeae in that
time that really helped to shift,

I think, my own understanding of myself.

It's where I came across
things like the social model

of disability for the first time.

So in terms of me engaging with and
articulating my sense of identity,

it was hugely influential.

But I think as my theatre making
went along, I went, Oh, I can be...

I'd say, I can be me.

I just can be me.

There's not a version
of my work that I make.

I make the work, and I think that
you're right, it is really eclectic.

I follow my nose I get interested
in particular ideas, and

that's really been a mix of...

I say it's a collective, and it is, but
actually it's usually either brand new

Or Shakespeare or a classical text.

But actually, I've
tended to miss out about 400 years in

the middle where I haven't done so much.

PAUL: Well, you've got plenty of time for that.

I should say, obviously, we haven't done
a live edition of our podcast yet,

but I wish we had about a few minutes ago
because your image of you physically

trying to not be sat in a box
or in the mould was very good.

Just to share with the listeners.

So I want to...

Obviously, you did a range
of directing, I'm sure, when you

left college and started to develop
as a director, your stint with Graeae.

But I wanted to focus on
a show called The Shape of Pain.

And in a sense, a show, if I'm right, that
deals obviously very poetically, but also

quite profoundly with your CRPS,
the Complex Regional Pain Syndrome.

RACHEL: That's right, yeah.

PAUL: Did it feel like just the
right time to make that show?

Was it the timing of something?

RACHEL: It was.

It was a mixture of things.

It had been an idea I'd been playing with.

And then I had a baby,
I had my first baby.

And there's something about that
that sharpened my need, I suppose.

It sharpened my focus and my needs
in terms of what work I was making.

And that became quite urgent.

It still took a few years, but
the need to make that show, on returning

back to work, really came out of that.

But I also spent a little bit of time
thinking that what I was going to make,

I think I've thought to talk to you
about this before, Paul, but was this...

I was going to make
a conceptual piece about pain.

It was nothing to do with my
own experience as far as I was concerned.

It had nothing to do with my life.

It was like some theatre sculpture
that was exploring what living with

chronic pain or what pain itself was.

And the more time I spent on
it and the more time, actually,

when I started working with Chris Thorpe,
who ended up writing the show, it

just became inescapable that
it had me at the heart of it.

Of course it does.

And of course that was why I
was making the show, but you

did this thing where I think I thought
I could make it from really far away and

not put my own life at the centre of it.

So it was quite an extraordinary thing
to do because it was a ...

It was essentially
a writing-devising process.

So we co-wrote the show
structurally and in the ideas, and

Chris wrote the words themselves.

But like I said, I was pushed against it
to start off with - this idea that I was

just going to make this experience
about pain.

Also, it's just like, the more
I talk about it, I think that show

would have been so tragical,
dreadful piece of work.

I had to just go with being
the maker and the director

and the subject and the research topic.

I had to allow myself to mine myself
and poke and prod myself

metaphorically to get to the heart
of what the show needed to be.

So it was a tough two or three years of
trying to put myself through the ringer

to try and figure out how to make
this show about something that

talking about makes my pain worse.

So to talk about the
content makes my pain worse.

It required quite a lot of...

Some clever scaffolding, I think,
around how we made it together to

be able to really get into that
and in a way that didn't bulldoze me

to the floor every time we tried to
get in a room and do something on it.

But ultimately, it became a
piece of work I'm very proud of.

PAUL: Well, you should be.

And also, obviously, the
wonderful Hannah McPike was in it.

And I suppose, interestingly, that
journey, not from something that's hugely

personal, lived experience of your own.

But then seeing and provoking
a great performer like Hannah to

somehow manifest that, that must
have been fascinating, and I imagine

very rewarding as well to work with her.

RACHEL: Yeah, very rewarding.

And the other big part of that was
the sound world, which was written

that Melanie Wilson wrote.

And so this extraordinary
combination of artists making this

piece of work together.

I think that also did something about...

Everybody making this piece
of work together that was

about me, but not for me.

Of course, it wasn't for me.

And it really, again, sharpened...

We were making it
very much for an audience in a way that

really pushed me to
focus so specifically on what the audience

experience of that show was,
from the point of which the audience

even engaged with the show through
to thinking about how they came out of it.

We were one of the first pieces of work,
really, that engaged with things like...

We took the show to the AC, well, we
took the show to Edinburgh, first of all.

Nobody had really done this, but we asked
at Summer Hall to try and find a space

that was a post-show breakout space
so that people had somewhere

to go to decompress, which people used.

Every show, there were people
sitting in that space.

That's not even that long ago,
it's seven years ago,

but it still felt like quite a radical app
to do at that stage,

and that we weren't booting people back
out into the busy Summer Hall

courtyard at the end of a show,
that we actually

really curated that experience
to the audience so

that they felt held right from the start
all the way through to having somewhere

to sit to digest it afterwards.

It was extraordinary
a free thing to be able to take

that amount of care over the audience.

It's something that I instinctively do,
but in terms of thinking about how

eclectic my work is, it absolutely is.

But I think that level of really
working out what it is I want to hold

with an audience for an audience
is the thing that threads all the way

through my work, I think.

PAUL: I think that's...

Yes, I could I certainly relate
to that in a very different way.

I think that's very much at the heart
of Told by an Idiot as well, the sense of

holding an audience and what that means.

And I'm still amazed sometimes when I
experience both as a performer or working

on [something] how little the audience
is talked about when shows are made.

I find it fascinating that
no one ever mentions the audience.

I've gone through a whole process,
and suddenly we meet and encounter this

group of people, which is the only reason
why we're doing in the first place.

And it's like they've
never been spoken of.

Anyway, we know what we
mean when we say that.

Thank you for that.

It's an extraordinary piece of work.

And then it's interesting,
you mentioned about either

something classical Shakespeare or
Duchess of Malfi, which I'll mention.

And then this extraordinary raft of
created shows from

ideas and kernels of ideas.

Talking of ideas, did you ever have the
idea that you wanted to run a building,

to sit where you are now sitting,
or did that come by surprise and chance?

RACHEL: I think that's,
again, developed over time.

I think early career, I think I went,
Well, of course, I'll become an artistic

director because that's what you do.

And then I...

Excuse me.

I think the reality of what that job
actually is at some stage caught up

with me and I went, Oh, gosh, no.
I don't know if I want to do that.

It's an awful lot of work.

I was in a really, really comfortable
place with myself as an artist,

the work that I was making.

I felt like I had a really,
really good balance with everything.

I've been Associate Director at
the Unicorn alongside

Justin running the place.

I'd actually made my peace
with not running somewhere.

I decided actually,
I thought, you know what?

I think I can make more impact
in my work as a freelance artist.

I can do both work on stage in terms of
the impact I make on stage, but then also

how I work with buildings and how I
work with companies is also where I make

an impact and where I can see change.

Then Justin told me he was leaving
and I was like, "Well, I don't want

anyone else to have that job except me!"
PAUL: [laughs]

RACHEL: There are very,
very few places that I think I

would have felt like that's about.

But the Unicorn is such a special building
and the audience, again, it's

all about inescapably about the audience.

I feel so lucky.

I've got, I think,
one of the best jobs in theatre.

So yes, I had to go for it.

PAUL: Well, I certainly know from talking
to colleagues and people in the industry

that you are a very popular choice.

I think the notion of what you speak
so passionately and so warmly about,

what the theatre means to you.

And I think it's a great transition from
Justin to yourself.

Sometimes it's interesting, isn't it?

Where you think, why don't I
have anything to do with all of that?

And then it makes me laugh when you say,
but I don't want anyone else to do it.

That's a very good way of looking at it.

How did you find...

Because, of course,
I don't think you directed there before.

You went to the Globe to direct
the wonderful Arthur Hughes, who

I've performed with, a wonderful actor.

And suddenly you were in the extraordinary
spaces of the Sam Wanamaker,

with the candles and a dense,
I imagine, quite difficult text as well.

What was that challenge like?
RACHEL: Yeah.

I mean, it's quite an extraordinary...

It's obviously an extraordinary space
to be in the Sam Wanamaker,

and the Duchess of Malfi as well.

I describe it...

I think Webster just had this innate
love for theatre that's in the writing.

But it's also a bit like...

He was a theatre maker.

He threw everything at it.

You get this like, "Let's
have a song now, shall we?

Let's have a song." "You know
what I think would work A dumb show.

Let's stick a dumb show in." It's
a bit of a really strangely shaped play

because it just feels, again,
from a theatre making perspective.

It's packed full of ideas and forms,
just trying everything out to

try and tell this story.

So that was just so fun because we lent
into that and then some just went, "Okay,

I see your dumb show and I raise you
a great big mass ball opening that the

play definitely doesn't have on the page"
and just really pushing at that.

And then I think the other thing
that we did for the first time

in the Wanamaker was...

We used creative captions.

PAUL: Oh, brilliant.
RACHEL: Yeah.

So putting
projectors into that space to use

a creative captions design that obviously
spoke to the space and sat within the

architecture of the space,
but also was fundamentally thrilling

aesthetically and worked
from an access perspective.

So it was quite a tall order to get a
design that met all of those things.

It was very exciting to do.

PAUL: Well, sadly, I was working and I couldn't
see it, but I also thought you had some

brilliant performers, not just Arthur,
but Tamzin and a great bunch of people.

RACHEL: Yeah, no, it's a phenomenal cast.

PAUL: Will we see more of you when you
get a little break from the Unicorn

doing something like that somewhere else?

RACHEL: Yeah, I very much hope so.

I'm directing the Unicorn's Christmas show
this year, and I have said that

in my first season at the Unicorn,
I'm not going to do a freelance job.

I'm just going to very much keep the next
year completely clear for the Unicorn.

But yeah, absolutely.

I'm, of course, having
conversations about other work.

I think there's something for me about the

classical texts have such a malleability

to them in terms of casting choices,
in terms of how to use creative access.

But actually the worlds just open up,
I think, in such a rich way.

So yeah, absolutely
plan on doing more soon.

PAUL: Brilliant.

And I also,
as we come towards the end, I can't

also not mention, and thank you for your
brilliant work with Sophie Woolley and

us, Idiots, on the wonderful Augmented.

It was a really great...

It was a really great combination,
I felt, of Told by an Idiot

and something very different.

I'm a huge fan of Sophie, as you know, and
she's worked with us and is on our board.

But I thought your creation and work
with her, even though it was

very different to what we do, it
felt like a wonderful companion somehow.

My only regret was,
of course, that show was just

immediately before COVID, wasn't it?

And it never quite got
the exposure, I think.

Like many shows didn't.

But I remember coming into the rehearsal
room, in the rehearsal, I'm thinking,

wow, this is a really creative place
to be and funny and unpredictable.

So I want to thank you for that anyway.

RACHEL: It's a real shame that it had such
a shortened outing due to the pandemic.

PAUL: Yes.

But also in terms of practice, a bit like
you were saying about your own practice,

lots of positive things came
out about people relooking at

how rehearsal rooms could be.

It doesn't have to be one thing.

It can be anything you wanted
to be and all of that stuff.

It provoked.
RACHEL: Yeah, absolutely.

PAUL: Anyway, Rachel, it's been
so lovely chatting to you.

I always end by asking
seven rapid fire questions.

You don't have to think about it.

You just have to say yes or no.

So first off, this takes you back
to your love of dance.

Hip hop or ballet?

RACHEL: Hip hop.

PAUL: Now, I have to declare the next question
is connected to the fact that

our kids went to the same primary school.

So if you're working at the
summer fair at the primary school,

would you rather be on the face painting
stall or the bouncy castle?

RACHEL: The bouncy castle.

Have a little lie down in between.
PAUL: I agree.

And face painting is hideous.

I did face painting one year,
Rachel, and it was so...

Lots of very aggressive people.

Oh no, I didn't enjoy face painting.

Anyway, I've got that off my chest now.

Edinburgh Festival or Brighton Festival?

RACHEL: Edinburgh.

Brighton is lovely and by the sea,
but still Edinburgh for me.

PAUL: Has to be.
A jam donut or a blueberry muffin?

RACHEL: Jam donut, always.

PAUL: Caryl Churchill or Sarah Kane?

RACHEL: Oh, my gosh, that's hard.

It has to be Caryl Churchill, actually.

PAUL: Forgive my pronunciation
if I've got this wrong.

Bussola or Iago?

RACHEL: Bussola, Bussola, always.

PAUL: Thank you.

From the Duchess of Malfi.
RACHEL: From the Duchess of Malfi.

PAUL: Watch press night or go for a pizza
when you're directing?

RACHEL: Watch press night.

PAUL: I am the same as you.

I can't believe these directors
who don't watch press night.

There are some, aren't there?

I can't do it.

I feel like the football manager,
if I got to the Cup final,

how could I not watch the Cup final?

RACHEL: It's exactly how I feel.

And, yeah, of course, it's hard,
but no, you need to be there.

PAUL: I know friends who go "Oh, no,
I'm just going for a pint now".

I go, Really?
I can't do it.

RACHEL: No, no, no, no, no.
Definitely.

PAUL: Thank you so much for joining us.

Obviously, we share a building, our office
is at the Unicorn, and so I'm sure we'll

see each other when the door closes.

RACHEL: The lift doors.

PAUL: Thanks, Rachel.

RACHEL: Thank you. Bye-bye.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this
idiot podcast, please spread the word.