PAUL: Hello and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of
Told by an Idiot, and this is a podcast

where I talk to friends and colleagues
delving into what made them

the person they are today.

Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is a director who
has been at the heart of British theatre

for the past three decades.

He has been a champion of new writing
and a robust interpreter of the classics

from Edward Bond to Shakespeare.

He was Artistic Director of the Lyric
Theatre, Hammersmith for 10 years,

where acclaimed productions
included Bugsy Malone and the

Olivier Award-winning Blasted.

He is currently Associate Artistic
Director of Shakespeare's Globe

and recently co-directed me and others,
in Charlie Josephine's glorious Cowboys.

Welcome, Sean Holmes.
SEAN: Hi, Paul.

Thanks for having me.
PAUL: Not at all.

It's very nice to see you,
and I appreciate you joining us

at the end of a very busy day
on the Much Ado About Nothing,

which we might touch on a bit later.

What I tend to start with, if you don't
mind, Sean, is I take my guests back

to a very early memory of theatre,
seeing performance, live performance.

Was that something
that was in your family?

Did you go regularly
or what was the score?

SEAN: No.
My family weren't.

It wasn't something that we did,
but my memory is Pantot,

that that is what we did.

I remember a really early memory
that has really stuck with me is we

went to see a panto, and I wasn't sure...

I couldn't tell you who it was.

It was probably Dick Wittington
because the scene was in a ship's cabin

and it had two people from Ain't
Half Hot Mum, Melvyn Hayes and

whoever played La-de-dah, Gunner Graham.
PAUL: Yes.

SEAN: They were playing Cricket, it was
like a food fight and they were playing

cricket, and they were hitting dough
into the audience.

Now, my adult director brain
goes, It couldn't have been real dough.

But anyway, whatever it was,
I was in the front row, and people

were throwing something back,
and I threw it, and it caught...

Whatever I threw in my child's memory hit
La-de-dah Gunner Graham on the leg, and

he turned around and looked quite cross.

I think there was a real moment
where I was like, Oh, they're really...

This isn't telly or film.

They're really there.

Probably that's where a directing career
was born, where I've been throwing things

at actors ever since.

Maybe, I don't know if
you're going to psychoanalyse it.

PAUL: We won't go into that.

I get enough of that at home.

But it's interesting that it was…

Obviously, I think we're
of a similar generation.

If the two of the stars of It Ain't
Half Hot Mum were in panto,

it was sometime, I suppose '70s?

SEAN: Yeah, so I was born '69.

I would have been about 7 or 8, I think.
What's that?

Mid '70s.

PAUL: Do you see it in London or where...
SEAN: No, because I grew up just outside.

I grew up in Egham and then
Addlestone, which is Surrey.

Not so much the leafy part.

Then I think it was
either Woking or Reading.

I remember getting on a coach to go to
Reading as a bus trip to see the Pantos.

I've got various meetings
merged, but one of those places,

Woking or Reading or maybe Guilford.

PAUL: No showbiz or performance or theatre
in the family background anywhere?

SEAN: No, none at all, really.
None at all.

I got into private school when I was 11.

My dad was a builder and he
was making a bit of money.

I did the 11 plus for a school
that had until recently

been a grammar school and I got in.

I hated it for the first half and wanted
to leave, and my parents wouldn't let me.

Then we had a really
great drama teacher, Mr.

Franscoviak, and we...

we weren't a very academic year,
but we, weirdly, got really into drama,

or maybe not so weirdly, and did drama.

It was O-level in those days.

Then he rather brilliantly said,
If you get your parents to write in,

we might be able to do theatre studies
at A-level, the sixth form, which we did.

More excitingly, it had to be
a mixed group It couldn't be one gender.

I don't know why that was the rules.

It was the first time
we collaborated academically

with the girls school next door.

We also did Theatre Studies A-level
with the young women from next door,

which was exciting and good.

PAUL: I'm sure it was.

I'm assuming, Sean, at that stage,
you were very much treading the boards.

You were acting, I'm assuming.

SEAN: Well, I was a bit, but what was weird
is when I looked back on it,

it was quite interesting that
when you think about it compared

to A-Levels now, we had to devise.

There was very little teaching
in the actual exam because we had

to devise our own piece, and we did that,
a collage of sketches and ideas about,

it's probably terrible,
but about America called

A Beautiful Mistake,
taken from an Elvis Costello album.

But I think I was sort of the director
without necessarily directing, which I'm

sure you'll be familiar with from
a company that's not so hierarchical,

but somebody ends up directing.

It felt like that thing
where somebody needed to be

the outside eye as well as in it.

I did do some acting then
when I went to university and stuff,

and maybe me just after, but it
wasn't the thing that most excited me.

Theatre excited me more
than acting, I think.

PAUL: Often when I talk to friends and pals
on this podcast thing, people identify a

teacher, whether it's, if in my case, it
was an English teacher, and clearly this

drama teacher had some influence there.

Was that teacher also…

I mean, When you went,
you said you went on to university.

Did you do drama or did
you do a different subject?

SEAN: No, I did English at York University,
but you got a lot of time at that time.

Also York had a brilliant space,
I think it still does, called the Drama

Barn, which does what it said on the tin.

It was a black box space
that was an old barn.

But it had a kind of magic.

So Simon Stephens talks about it.

He, the writer, went a couple
of years after me and talks about it.

There's other people, ex-alumni
of York, who talk about that space.

That was one of the things
I most liked about York,

was making shows in that space.

PAUL: You mentioned, obviously,
yourself and Simon Stephens.

Who were some of the other alumni?

SEAN: Well, there wasn't many people
at York in those days.

I think there's probably more after.

But it was one of the funny things
about that university, because, again,

this was the '80s It was only about 20
years old, so I think it was Jack Straw,

maybe somebody like Harvey Proctor
or something I can't remember, really.

But it was quite nice.

That was one of the nice things about it,
that you were not in this hallowed halls

of the Cambridge or Oxford Drama Society,
which I'm sure has its own strengths.

But it was like just mucking about in
a barn that nobody didn't really seem to

lead to anything, which is probably
the best way to lead to something.

PAUL: That's true.
That is true.

Did you take shows up to Edinburgh?

Was that something that you-

SEAN: No, I did a bit later,
just after I left University.

I'll try and do this story quickly.

PAUL: No, no.

SEAN: There's a writer now, a writer,
a playwright and film writer,

television writer called Vincent
O'Connell, who's a friend of mine, but

we met at York because he was 10 years...

He'd left York 10 years before
and had moved back up there to write.

York is a small place and we met.
Bumped into each other.

Pre mobiles, you just need to
bump into people in a pub

and have a drink in the chat.
We got on really well.

The week before I left university,
we happened to bump into each other

in the urinal at the John Ball,
which they've knocked down now, sadly.

I gave him my number like
you did in those days.

Never necessarily thought I would
hear from him as much as I liked him.

But he called me that summer
saying, Oh, my friend in Bristol

is at Bristol University is directing
a show of mine for Edinburgh,

and an actor has dropped out.

Your girlfiend, I've seen
her in a couple of shows.

Would she be up for doing it?

My girlfriend, at the time was somebody
called Mary Louise, and she got on a train

and went down to Bristol to meet the woman
who was directing the show,

who she didn't know,
maybe had one short phone conversation

with and then, I don't know what was going
on with that show, but about a week later,

the two men in the show dropped out,
and they phoned me and my friend, Giles,

and we got in my Ford Fiesta
and drove down to Bristol.

And the director was Sarah Kane, who was
about to start her last year at Bristol.

They scrapped that play, and Vince
had a series of short plays,

short one-page scenes or mini-plays.

We decided to do those,
and we took those to Edinburgh.

It was called Dream, Screens,
and Silences, and it was directed

by Sarah, and Vince wrote them.

Also, there were two monologues
by Sarah, which were the second half.

But the sort of extraordinary thing
about the experience was, Vince would

start the show by asking the audience
for a title, would go off into the café,

write it must have been on a typewriter
and then have to print it off.

I don't know how you did it pre laptop.

Write the play, bring it back in.

At the start of the interval, we would
read it and act it live for the audience.

You just get it and go for it.

Then we would If we liked it,
which we often did because he started

to write for us because we were all
living in a flat together, we would then

replace one of the existing short plays
with one of the new ones.

So by the end of the run,
it was significantly different.

It was a extraordinary experience, really.

Sarah's brilliant theatre
brain and Vince, too.

It was also as part of the learning just
to be immersed into such great brains

and people who so seriously,
but were also a real laugh as well.

PAUL: Yeah, that sounds a lot of fun.

SEAN: It was really memorable.

PAUL: Yeah, that's an amazing story and an
amazing connection is being made there.

As soon as you say about having a laugh,
I think I mentioned this to you maybe

in the Dirty Duck in Stratford one night
or something, but I didn't

know Sarah Kane very well.

But my memory of her is having
a real laugh in Bucharest when

she was out with the Royal Court.

We were there with Told by an Idiot.

She saw our show.

We had a really great laugh
all night to about three in the morning.

When I hear her name and I think
of her, I laughed during the night

for me, which was a thing.

Obviously, you then stayed in touch with
her and later you collaborated again.

SEAN: She and Vincent, were really good friends.

Mary Louise, who was my girlfriend at
the time as well, were super really good

friends with Sarah and with Vince.

And we did a couple of little things,
I think, but a part of Brighton Festival.

It's really funny trying to remember.

I think probably not long after that.

Yes, and Sarah was a friend, really.

I went to see, like you would
we went to see your friends play.

I went to see the second preview
of Blasted, which was an interesting

experience because what everyone slightly
forgets about that is it was quite,

though it was at the Royal Court,
it was quite fringy because it

was the new writing festival.

It was a three week run,
deliberately cheap set.

It was a really exciting idea.

I remember my friend being...

My friend was always late,
was always late, and we just

got in at the time and he squeezed in
on the bench seats they had then.

I knew it was nearly 2 hours, no interval.

I was thinking, Oh,
God, this is quite a long.

Then it started.

When we came out, and this is the thing
that hardens into anecdote,

but it's genuinely true,
and said, What do you think?

I said, I don't know,
but I feel like we've just

seen something really important,
and it did genuinely feel like that.

That's why it was such a shock
and so stupid, this insane

and hysterical critical response
to the production, which didn't really…

The interesting thing
was I didn't have a clue or an inkling

that that would happen,
though it was obviously a shocking

and disturbing and provocative play.

It was also profound and moving and moral.

It was just really weird.

Such a huge event, I think, for Sarah,
deeply unfair and weird, I think.

PAUL: Yeah, it's strange.

To be there, as you say, to see it right
at the very beginning, it's quite

an event in itself, I suppose.

What about your…

Because people always ask me about,
Oh, as you carry on on your journey

in theatre or whatever, and I never liked
the word career or something like that.

It sounds a bit too formal.

But when did it become something
where you thought, I want to try and

make a living from this?

Or how did you make that transition
from a slightly more studenty stuff

going on to going?

Was it assisting or how did you take?

SEAN: Yeah, it's a good question.

I really agree with you.

I think The thing is that, especially
when you're starting out, it can feel

like there's these people with careers.

Whereas I think career, especially
in theatre and what we do

is sort of an accident often.

I didn't know what I wanted to do.
I knew I wanted to be a director.

I had no clue how to go about it.

I did a MA at King's College London and
RADA called Text and Performance Studies.

I think it was the second
year of that course.

It was a bit of a mishmash of things, but
what was great is you just spent a year

with 20 like-minded people who
were really into theatre and brilliantly,

we'd all sit in to go and see things
and say how we would have done it better.

That's just really funny to think
about now, how we would have directed

Shakespeare on the Barbican stage better.

Anyway, but that's part of it, isn't it?

To be in opposition.

Then the thing that was most lucky,
the Orange Tree had a resident,

a trainee director post for a year.

There were two of us, and I applied
for that, and I got one of the posts.

What's interesting is a lot
of people who came, Rachel Cavanagh,

Dominic Hill, James Brianing.

James Brianing, sorry, for Education
at the Orange Tree, Tim Sheida.

There was like around that,
we're of a similar generation,

some are slightly younger.

It was interesting because Sam just...

It was a really interesting time
to be at the Orange Street,

to assist, but regularly.

I used to pester Sam because
they had the new space, but they still

had the old space above the pub,
and I would pull things off for 50 quid.

I look back on it now
and I think, God, thank goodness

for Sam letting me do that.

I did some terrible stuff and
some stuff I was sort of proud of.

But you were making stuff in a way which
I think is so hard now with not a lot

of jeopardy because it's really hard.

What you need is a chance
to make mistakes.

It's particularly hard as a director
because it's really obvious,

but you need actors in a play
and a rehearsal space in the theatre

and maybe some lights and sound.

It quite quickly builds
and it's quite hard to get that.

That was my journey for a bit.

But it was difficult financially
because you didn't get paid very much.

You did some shifts on
box office and front of house.

PAUL: Apprenticeship.

SEAN: And also, you could sign
on a bit in those days.

PAUL: Yes.

SEAN: Housing benefit and all that stuff
that just seems a world away now.

PAUL: I also think when I talk to
younger actors and some of the guys

in Cowbois and stuff, and I don't
know how young directors and performers

managed to live in London.

Never mind make work.
SEAN: Yeah.

It was a very different landscape then
in the early '90s, wasn't it?

Rents were much cheaper,
much more available.

It's really difficult for people
now, and we were lucky, definitely,

that we had that bit more freedom.

PAUL: Yeah, true, and a bit
more support in some ways.

SEAN: Yeah

PAUL: I'm going to move forward a bit now
because I want to touch on many things

and I want to talk about
your brilliant time with the Lyric,

but who were the directors that were
influencing you as a younger director?

Who were you going,
I've got to see their show.

When they do a show, I They've got
to be there to see what they do.

SEAN: I think definitely I would say one
of the people who I most admire was

Katie Mitchell when she was at the RSC
and then moved on from there.

But she was at the RSC as a director
when I was an assistant.

She did a production of Phoenician Women.

The purity and rigour
of her work really spoke to me.

Again, because I was a bit...

What's the word?

Because I didn't come through a theatrical
background, and then because

I was in York, where there wasn't
a lot of theatre to see, I didn't

feel as literate in theatre.

I think, interestingly, rather
than Directors, it was places,

it was the Bush under Dominic,
even though I didn't know Dominic.

It
was going to the Bush and seeing

Making Noise Quietly
or the Kreutz plays that stuck with me,

it was,
I think the Royal Court under Daldry,

obviously, Sarah, we mentioned,
but when they came into town as well,

when the theatre was being redeveloped,
I've always been quite omnivorous,

if you see what I mean,
rather than having a particular taste.

I think it was more like theatres
and flavours than particular

directors, I would say.

PAUL: It's interesting you talk about theatres
because obviously you ended up

running a brilliant theatre and
you did it really brilliantly as well.

SEAN: Thank you.

PAUL: It's interesting for me because obviously,
I feel like we've become mates more

recently, even though we've known
each other for a long time.

You mentioned chance
encounters, bumping each other.

We bumped into each other
in the wonderful Pineapple Pub

when you get chatting and stuff.

I realised we didn't really…

I came to see lots of things
there, but we didn't work together there.

I think that sense, was it always
in your thinking, I'd love to have a go

at running a building, or was it
something that you in that moment

went, I'm going to go for it?

SEAN: Yeah, it's a really good question.

I think it probably wasn't.

I've been associated at Oxford Stage
Company with Dominic Dromgoole that's now

Headlong and really supported by Dominic
and given lots of opportunities.

Then when Dominic left, I went for
the Artistic Director of Oxford Stage

Company, but I can really look back on it
and go, I understand why they didn't give

it to me, because I think, A, it's very
hard if you've been part of a regime.

It is a hard thing
to enthuse about a new vision without

criticising the old one and so on.

Also, I just thought Rupert got it
and he was in a better place to get it

than me at that time, definitely.

Because I think when you apply for jobs,
it's like a matchmaking.

You discover whether
you're ready for it or not.

But I was starting to circle around it.

Then actually, Dominic phoned me
when the Lyric became a possibility

and said I should go for it.
I was like, I'm not sure.

I thought about it.

Then it was really funny, just before
the deadline, I'd gone out with friend, a

designer, and we were working on a show.

We ended up in quite
a lot to drink and stuff.

He said, Oh, you should do it.

I got back and I wrote
the application drunk that night.

When I read it the next day,
it was actually quite good

because I think it had been building
and building and kind of splurged out.

As I went through the process
for the artistic director of the Lyric,

which was, I think,
at least two, if not two and a half

meetings or three,
what was interesting is I felt more

and more clear and more and more
articulated a vision of what I wanted

and more and more
committed to wanting to run it.

One of the reasons was,
and it's the first thing I wrote

in that application,
is the Lyric was always the place

in London that I have most
enjoyed as an audience member because

there was something about you saw rubbish
and you saw great stuff and you never

quite knew what you're going to see.
It's a beautiful theatre.

It's some weird energy because it's
in Hammersmith and it's a concrete box

with a 19th-century theatre inside it.

I think it met me and I met it,
and it was the right time.

And also, what's really important to say
is the team around it, obviously, Jessica

Hepburn, who'd already been in place as
Executive Director, and we ran that place

together and it was an arranged
marriage, but sometimes they were.

Then we had a really young team
that got promoted as we went along.

It felt that, you know we got loads
of things wrong or something,

but there was something about the spirit
of that place that I'm really proud of.

The fact that lots of us are still
really close from that time.

There's a really extended family
that's still connected in lots of ways.

Also, clearly, our work with young people
and how that ran like the writing

for a stick of rock through the building,
and everyone got that.

The fact that we could be local,
London-wide, national, international,

that was the thing at its best.

I think an example would I think we were
probably the only theatre in the world

where you could programme Blasted,
followed by Cinderella,

and they both feel absolutely the right
choice, both speaking to our audience

in different ways and probably different
audiences and actually the people in

the theatre being equally proud of both.

There's something in that that is
the thing I really like about that

and has made the Lyric,
it's sort of weird special thing.

PAUL: I think you sum that up very well.

You capture that spirit of the building
and what the Lyric is really well.

And not obviously in your time,
but in lots of periods.

I'm going to see a lot of work
when Neil was there, Neil Bartlett.

I think he always managed to
combine the sacred and the profane

in that wonderful, as you say, interior.

I totally agree what
you mean about a team.

I was only there recently to see Jessica's
book launch and saw a lot of old faces

and Seamus, the head of Production and
all these people been there for years.

Also that amazing rebuild or whatever you
did for the young company and all that.

No, it's a real legacy that.

My next question is, do you think
you're done with running a building

or would you do it again?

SEAN: It's a good question.

I've had one or two
conversations, and in one case,

a bit further than a conversation.

I really like it.

I suppose one answer is I'm really lucky.

I'm Associate Artistic
Director of the Globe.

I get to support Michelle and
her brilliant vision and support loads

of work that we do in this place.

It's a really rewarding creative job,
and I can also help to lead artistically

through directing plays.

I'm really, really lucky with that.

Also, that obviously gives me elements
of leadership without having to lead,

lead, lead like Michelle does.

But also it is something I enjoy,
as you'll know from when we did Cowbois

together, there's this what I hope
and what Charlie and I hope brought,

is it brought your best self to the room,
and it's the same if I was

running an organisation.

I think it's harder now.

It felt hard when I ran
the Lyric, but compared...

But just the financial reality
now is so much harder.

I think there's a post-COVID aftershock
still, which is financial, but also

around people are more, and this is not a
criticism, but all of us are more fragile

or more vulnerable or whatever
the word is so it's just more....

and the world is more divided, divisive.

PAUL: And volatile.

SEAN: Quick to anger, volatile,
and all those things.

It's hard.

But I do...
What are they?

I'm not ruling out the possibility.
Yeah, or whatever.

But at the same time, I also think

what I kind of enjoy as well is I think I

really enjoyed working with people
from generations above me and learning

from them as an assistant director or as
a director, working with older

writers or whatever that might be.

I think there's also a weird thing
as I'm about to hit 55, where

you can also really enjoy collaborating
with those younger than you.

You saw it work first-hand
with me and Charlie

working and learning from each other.

Also, I've done it with Holly Race Roughan
when we did Metamorphosis here

or Ilinca Radulian when we did Henry VI
and Richard III together

here before the pandemic.

It's something I really
enjoy that shared leadership

and shared collaboration as I say-

PAUL: That comes across really clearly,
Sean, and I think as we come towards

the end of this lovely chat,
I wanted to touch on that.

One thing, an observation
when you were chatting that is you

did sound a bit like a football manager.

It's been linked to a job in Juventus and
you're going, I won't rule myself out.

SEAN: I did that deliberately because
I knew you'd get the reference, actually.

I was in my head yeah.

PAUL: Exactly.

Then maybe being at the Globe and,
as you say, supporting

the vision, Michelle's vision,
made me feel that you were maybe a bit

like the Peter Taylor of British theatre
in the sense that many people thought

he was the brains behind the club.

Anyway, I'll stop my football analogies.

What I did want to say is how brilliant it
was to see you collaborate as a director.

You wear it very lightly and you talk
about it in a way quite lightly.

But I can't think of any…

Well, I can't think of many other
directors that openly collaborate with

other directors in the room.

I experienced it only once.

Of course, actors are cynical,
so they go, what was that like?

What was it like with Sean
and Charlie together?

I go, Actually, it was great.

They don't believe you initially.
No, no, no.

Come on.
What was it like?

I said it was really good.

It was really good because obviously
you were very, very generous

towards each and to the room.

I suppose my question is,
well, it's a question, it's more

an observation, I suppose.

It feels really interesting that,
as you say, as a director who's maybe

gone a bit further down the line
to not only support younger directors,

but work with them together on something.

I just wanted to say I think it's great.

That's really good.
SEAN: Yeah, thank you.

I think you got to be
careful that you don't…

It's really easy.

Charlie put it brilliantly.

They said it's really tiring
to keep learning.

I think you meet lots of people
who get to our generation and they

are still curious because curiosity isn't
tiring, but to properly learn is

tiring, and you've learned a lot by
the time you get to our age, hopefully.

The danger is you feel you know it.

The thing is it's good, but part of the
thing in that room is it's just a thing.

It doesn't mean the show is going to be
brilliant, but probably the show is going

to be all right because I've got a track
record of doing shows that are all right.

There's a gives you a bit
more room for manoeuvre.

Also, clearly, Charlie's written
a smashing play and he's a great human

and artist, and there's lots
of people in that room also

had a connection with Charlie.

It wasn't an accident,
the chemical combination of everyone

in that room, because that's also
important to think about, as you know.

But the thing about it is it also does
something interesting, which is,

I think what's happened increasingly is
the actor as a creative,

the actor who has to take responsibility
for bits of their job has been slightly

compressed by this idea,
and I think directing can feel

a bit like control at the moment.

There's lots of actors, there's lots
of directors to make brilliant shows

who do that, but I can't do that.

I'm not interested in your intention
or objective of every single line.

I can do it.

I'm interested in it if it
doesn't seem to be there.

But more and more, I think it's about
the actor providing that and the actor

driving the room with their ideas,
and we can react to that.

I'm always trying to build a frame within
which people can be free with clarity.

Then you shape it as you go together.

The baseline is we're there
to try and have a good time

because that's why we all did it
in the first place which is important.

PAUL: I think that's brilliant.

What's great, Sean, is
how well you articulate that.

I think there'll be a lot of younger
directors in particular to be interested

to hear you talk quite specifically
about your process in the second one.

We bled into it a little bit,
but it's interesting to hear that.

It's been brilliant chatting,
but there is beer to be drunk

and snooker to be played in my case.

But on that note, I always finish the same
I ask seven rapid fire questions.

You just say the first response that comes
into your head, and I'll start with beer.

Guinness or Pale Ale?
SEAN: Guinness.

PAUL: Chekhov or Shakespeare?

SEAN: Shakespeare.

PAUL: The Sam Wanamaker or the Globe
Outdoors, whatever you call it.

SEAN: That's hard.
That's really hard.

Globe Outside, which I didn't necessarily
think I would say, but yes.

PAUL: French or Saunders?
SEAN: French.

PAUL: This is a Fulham choice, but from probably
around the time, if not slightly earlier

than when you went to the Pantomine.

It might be something you'll
have to confer with your Dad about.

Rodney Marsh or George Best?

SEAN: It would have to be George Best,
I would think.

It would.

PAUL: I can't believe they
both played for Fulham.

SEAN: And Bobby Morton.
PAUL: Yeah.

This is about your DIY skills.

Carpentry or plumbing?

SEAN: Well, I think carpentry just because
the consequences are probably less

disastrous whenever I tried to do it.

PAUL: Well, you might want to weigh up
the consequences of my final

question, yoga or pilates?

SEAN: I think I'm more a yoga person.

PAUL: Brilliant.

Sean it's been a real pleasure.

We will have that pint soon.

Well, I'll certainly be
down to the Globe to see Much Ado,

and I look forward to that.

But thank you very much for joining us.
SEAN: Yeah, thank you, Paul.

Thank you, Jen, as well.
PAUL: All the best.

SEAN: See you soon.
All the best.

Have lots of love.
Bye.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this
Idiot podcast, please spread the word.