PAUL: Hello and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of Told
by an Idiot, and this is a podcast where I

talk to friends and colleagues
delving into what made them

the person they are today.

Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is an award-winning
lighting designer

who has created a critically acclaimed
body of work both nationally

and internationally.
Working across theatre, opera, and dance.

Her work is eclectic, collaborative,
and highly atmospheric,

and I'm very delighted to say,
we continue to collaborate together,

with our Told by an Idiot projects.

Welcome, Aideen Malone.

AIDEEN: Thank you very much, Paul.
Thanks for having me.

PAUL: Well, you're very welcome.

Now I'm going to do something I don't
normally do because

you are a first in many ways, Aideen,
because we've never had a

lighting designer on the show.

So I wanted to ask,
diving deep in at the deep end, uh,

maybe a tricky question:
what do you think the qualities are

that a good lighting designer needs?

AIDEEN: Right, all my qualities, of course!

Um, it's a good question,
it is a good question, straight in there.

Yeah, I think they need to be
a very good collaborator.

PAUL: Yeah.

AIDEEN: Um, I think they need to be a very
good listener, and a good observer.

Um, and I think they need to be able
to pull a lot of,

different thoughts,
and departments together,

because I do feel like, yeah, so they,
they, they need to be able to string a lot

of things together and pull a lot
of different elements together.

And need to be quite patient and have
nerves of steel because the tech process

is really quite - can be
quite enduring and testing.

And need to be quite calm,
I think, because I mean, for me,

the tech is the most exciting period,
but it's actually the most

time-restrictive period as well.

But it is quite exciting getting
in a room with bunch of people.

So yeah, I think they're the qualities.

PAUL: It's interesting when you say
things I picked up on then were calmness,

nerves of steel.

And I sometimes think when I think about
yourself and lighting is sometimes it

feels like you're able to see in the room,
you're watching rehearsals, you're

talking to loads of different people.

But it often feels like you're
waiting for your work to happen.

Does it feel like that sometimes?

AIDEEN: Yeah, yeah.

I mean, we have to hold a lot
of stuff in our heads.

Yeah.

And because we can pre-visualise stuff
on the computer,

but it's not the same as reality,
and you have to pump in a bunch

of haze in order to see stuff.

So it's not the same,
but it's a useful tool.

But you're right, we're in the room,
we're putting you know, plans together,

we're putting images together, thoughts,
and just how the show might look.

But you're right,
you have to

hold a lot of stuff in the head and hope
that that, and rely on that,

and hope that that then works
when you go into the theatre.

But what I do try to do is I do talk
and show images and show stuff um,

even if they're quite abstract images,
just so that,

uh,
there's conversations and I know that I'm

on the right road, especially,
um, in relation to the,

the world of the piece.

But yes, we do have to— we can't really do
what we do until we're in the theatre,

and that's the time when, you know,
it's quite expensive to be in the space.

PAUL: Yes, that's true.

AIDEEN: So yes, we do have to hold and wait.

PAUL: Well, we'll talk more about
that specifically,

but what I'd like to do,
uh, is what I often do with guests

is take them back to the beginning.

And by that I mean that your first
experience of seeing theatre,

whether that was with school
or with the family, and, and what

effect or impact, if any, it had on you.

AIDEEN: I think the first place
I went to the theatre was, so I grew up in

Laois, which is between Dublin and Cork.

And I went to Dublin with my cousins
to see Maureen Potter in a pantomime

in the Olympia in Dublin.

And Maureen Potter is a legendary
Irish comedian actor, performer.

I mean, just an amazing woman,
no longer with us unfortunately.

But, um, and I just remember -
I don't remember, it was pantomime,

I know that, but I don't remember exactly
what the show was or the,

you know, the characters.

But I just remember being so bowled over
by her

and how amazing she - she's a really
strong, interesting, funny woman on stage.

And then her interaction with the
audience, I was going, wow, this is cool.

What is this?
This is a bit of magic.

And so that would be my first, yeah.

PAUL: And how old would you have been, Aideen?

AIDEEN: I probably was about 9 or 10.

Okay.

And I didn't go with the family.

It was with my cousin.

And it's funny because when I mentioned
that in a previous interview and my family

came back to me going,
when did you go to Maureen Potter?

We didn't go to Maureen Potter!

PAUL: It was a revelation that you'd been
to Maureen Potter, a family revelation.

But I was reading somewhere that you said
you grew up in quite a musical

household, is that right?

AIDEEN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There was always, I mean, to be honest,
the town that I grew up in,

a little town called Rathdowney,
the amount of talent there was

in that town was quite amazing, really.

A lot of music talent and a lot
of storytelling you know,

a lot of performers on stage.

But in my house, there was
always a guitar hanging around.

There was a piano.

We were always doing music.

Anytime we had family gatherings,
we always had a sing-song.

And both my parents sung, and most
of the family sing or play an instrument.

And my mother's parents were
amateur operatic singers.

PAUL: Oh, wow.

AIDEEN: So, yeah, so it was,
yeah, so it was quite fun.

But it was, yeah, and I learned
to play the guitar like most of us.

PAUL: Do you still play?

AIDEEN: I do, I do.

I'd like to play more, but I can still,
yeah, I can still play, but I -

it sits there a lot and looks
at me going, come on.

Um, but I think also the thing that,
when I went to school,

when I went to secondary school,
we did a musical every year.

Ah, and that was my first taste of
actually being on stage.

PAUL: And how was that?

AIDEEN: Oh, I loved it, absolutely loved it.

Anything to get out
of a classroom, frankly.

Um, but, uh, yeah, no,
really, really loved it.

And it was,
um, so it was a boarding school and it

meant I could get out of mass as well.

So we had to go to mass run by nuns.

Exactly, anything.
PAUL: Perfect combination!

What sort of musicals
were you doing at school?

All the classics?

AIDEEN: Yeah, yeah.

So we did, um, I played, uh,
what I played Curly in Oklahoma.

PAUL: Oh, excellent.
AIDEEN: Um, I played Zorro in Viva Mexico.

PAUL: Oh, that's good.

Zorro, Aideen, that's rather good.

AIDEEN: Yes.

PAUL: And in a sense,
that level of swashbuckling maybe helps us

as we move forward with our
plans for the Three Musketeers.

You You could draw on your Zorro.

AIDEEN: Valuable research indeed.

But I think the role that, um,
the role that really, um,

I think really convinced me that I wanted
to do something to do with performance -

well, I thought it was performance
initially - was I played

the king in The King and I.

And I remember, um,
Sister Catherine was an amazing music

teacher but quite a hard
hard work, frankly.

But we all survived her.

But she was very talented.

But we had this guy come down from Dublin,
Tony Barry, and he essentially did

the set design, the lighting,
and he did some direction as well.

And I remember having lessons with him,
you know, about how to play the king and

the attributes that the king would have.

And I remember watching Yul Brynner in
the King and I, so, you know,

over and over again.

It was just - it was
the detail I got into that character was

quite - was just really special
and really amazing at the age of 17.

So yeah, very well.

PAUL: So, so fundamentally it was performing
that was drawing you then at this point,

you were thinking?

AIDEEN: Yeah, I thought I wanted to - I think I
thought I wanted to perform, um, and, uh,

I suppose when a lot of people see shows,
they don't see the lighting

first thing, do they?

They see a performance on stage and
they're able to connect with that person.

And then when I left school,
I didn't think that drama

was a career, frankly.

And most of the people that were advising
me going, it's not a career,

you can't do a job like that.

So I listened to them and then
I studied marketing for 2 years.

PAUL: Did you?

AIDEEN: Yeah, exactly.

PAUL: What, in Dublin?

AIDEEN: In Dublin.

And, um,
I was quite happy to get out

of Rathdowney, lovely town that it is,
but it was just a little bit too small.

PAUL: And how did you cope with marketing?

AIDEEN: Oh, the only thing that kept
me going was the psychology.

The psychology lecture was really cool.

I was really interested in that.

So I found that interesting,
but I basically stuck at it just

to get a qualification out of it.

I then went back
and reset my Leaving Cert.

You could do that at that time.

And then I applied - I was living with two
art students,

and rather than spending time in marketing
college, I was hanging out

in the art college the whole time.

And I was going, now these are the sort
of people I want to hang out

with and I want to play with.

So I then, as I said,
reset my Leaving Cert and then got into

drama and theatre in Trinity and yeah.

PAUL: So when - is that a 3-year
BA or something?

AIDEEN: It's a 4-year.
Oh yeah.

But I did 2 years in Dublin
and then in the third year I did

an exchange to London and went from there.

But in the - and yeah, I never went back.

PAUL: But when you, when you were in Dublin
and indeed in London, you were still

at that point simply wanting to perform.
Was that the case?

AIDEEN: Yeah, yeah, you're right,
you're absolutely right.

So I initially went to,
um, audition for performance-only courses,

so for acting courses rather than -
and the course that I ended up doing

was a drama and theatre degree,
which meant you did all the disciplines.

And so you did onstage, offstage,
you did all the design elements,

or stage management, production
management, and performance.

And then it's there I
fell upon lighting design.

And I thought, oh,
this is quite interesting.

PAUL: It's really interesting you talk about
that period when you suddenly discover it,

because I read something you, you said,
and I thought, wow,

that's really powerful and quite poetic.

You - I think that I'm quoting,
so I hope correctly, but it said,

"I love this element that was difficult
to describe but emotionally

drove straight to the heart".
AIDEEN: Hmm.

PAUL: It had almost a visceral impact on you,
this idea of lighting then?

AIDEEN: Yeah, I mean, just when you, when you,
you look at something in work light or,

uh,
and then if you just turn off the work

light and you just put a spotlight
on something, it just transforms it

and it's just magic.

And I just completely fell in love with it
and I just like the intangibility of it.

I also like the process that you can't,
um,

You can't really - you can,
you know, have research and you can have

images and you have lots of - but you
can't really do it without it.

So it's just, it is so, as you say,
visceral, um, and it's

just transformative.

And you can - people, I don't even think,
realise the effect of what you know,

a colour shift, a very slow colour shift
in a scene from whatever

colour to whatever colour.

But I think people don't really know
and sometimes don't realise

the effect of lighting.

And you're right, I think it
hits you here in your heart.

PAUL: Yeah, well, I totally agree.

And I think it's sometimes imperceptible
what is happening sometimes, as you say,

that people are not aware of the effect
that that's being created.

No, that's a -
so at that point when you have this kind

of, uh,
revelation, I suppose,

as you start to encounter lighting,
was that the beginning then of a shift

potentially away from being
on stage to off stage, or did

that take more time for that to emerge?

AIDEEN: Oh, that nearly happened instantaneously.

PAUL: Did it?
AIDEEN: Um, yeah, yeah.

And also I was doing more performance
and I was just getting a bit,

I don't know, I think as I was doing a bit
of both and all the various different

disciplines,
I was becoming really aware when I was

on stage of all the other disciplines.

And also,
so I was getting distracted while I was

performing, which is clearly
not a good idea, right?

PAUL: Not so good.

It's a good indication that maybe your
heart lies somewhere else, isn't it?

But the fact is you'll always have
the king in The King and I, so whatever.

AIDEEN: Nobody could take that away from me.
PAUL: Exactly.

So once you're kind of leaning more
towards that, were you able to start

to specialise in that, or did you have
to train again especially for lighting?

AIDEEN: Um, because it's not yesterday when I did
that course, there was no lighting design

course back then.

PAUL: Oh wow, it didn't exist at all?
AIDEEN: No, no.

And there was lighting design,
but there wasn't really a course.

Well, there definitely
wasn't one in Ireland.

There might have been a semblance of some
over here in London, but

it didn't really exist.

So you - a lot of the designers did what I
did, so drama and theatre degree, or

a drama and English degree,
or drama and something.

And then you got to,
you got to do modules in lighting design,

and you got to do a lot
of - light a lot of shows.

But essentially,
yeah, it was more just lighting design was

a section or a module in the -
as part of the course.

So when I came to London and probably,
probably one of the reasons why I maybe

stayed over
is when I was doing my exchange,

Paule Constable was
the lighting

tutor that came in as a freelancer
and ran the whole lighting design course.

PAUL: Where was this?

AIDEEN: This is in Goldsmiths in London.

PAUL: So you meet Paule, and was that also
a seminal moment in the way?

AIDEEN: Big time.
Absolutely.

And then I saw her work and,
you know, fellow woman, and I just

thought, well, gosh, she can do it.
I can do it.

PAUL: Well, exactly.

You encounter someone and it gives you
kind of not just possibility,

but kind of licence to do it, doesn't it?
To go, okay.

AIDEEN: Exactly.

PAUL: And I think, if I think about Paule's
brilliant work,

I remember seeing - and we're a similar
generation obviously - but I remember

seeing The Amazing Street of Crocodiles,
the Complicite show at the National

Theatre in, oh God, '92 or something.

And I hadn't really thought
about lighting, really.

I hadn't even been directing.

I was a performer.

I hadn't crossed that point.

But even then, I remember amongst all this
astonishing piece of theatre,

and the part that lighting played in it
really affected me, like a bit like you're

saying visceral response when,
you know, moments in that show where

you thought, wow, it's extraordinary.

AIDEEN: Oh yeah, I saw that show

PAUL: Having her as a tutor must
have been a great experience.

AIDEEN: Oh, completely, absolutely inspirational.

But also she was so busy
working freelance-wise,

she brought in amazing other designers.

So she brought in Ben Ormerod,
who did it, he did a colour workshop.

And no, you know what
an amazing experience that was.

We had Simon Corder come in,
we had - who else did we have?

Anyway, we had just incredible designers
and I was going,

oh my God, this is amazing.

These people are inspirational.
PAUL: It's true.

And also, I don't know about you,
but I always felt as an actor when I was

training, I was always -
obviously we had great teachers.

Well, not obviously.

Some of them were good
and some weren't so good.

But, but I was always excited when someone
who was genuinely working in the industry

came in to talk to us or work with us.

Because it did make a difference,
didn't it, when you thought,

oh my God, they're doing it.

They're not just teaching here,
they're - they've got a show on,

or they're working on a show.

And I think that contact is so powerful
when you're starting out, I think.

AIDEEN: Yeah, I completely agree with you.

And their perspective is
a little bit different as well.

And as you say, they're actually doing it.

And if you connect with them,
then you make a connection,

and then you may even get - I went
and worked with with Paule on a couple

of - or assisted her on a couple
of projects on the back of just

being one of the students.

So I mean, what an amazing experience.
PAUL: Exactly.

And I suppose that you've answered my next
question, which was obviously,

uh, if you - if you're - I didn't do this,
but a lot of people who begin the journey

to being a director start assisting.

So was that your journey
as a lighting designer?

You started assisting more
established designers?

AIDEEN: Uh, I actually
I didn't do a - I did a little bit

of assisting,
but I felt, um, I felt they were more

like placements, to be honest, initially.
PAUL: Yeah.

AIDEEN: Um, and then I also felt that I needed
to learn my craft a little bit more,

so actually I went and, um,
I went and worked as chief electrician

at The Place once I finished college.

I was you know, I was trying
some stuff out on the fringe.

I was trying, you know,
exploring lots of various different

things, and I was just
struggling a bit financially.

So I had to do,
you know, freelance work

at Sadler's Wells, loads of different
places, and at The Place.

And that was great experience.

And then I thought, you know, I'll be
chief electrician

at The Place for a little bit.

And I saw incredible
international work come through.

I fell in love with dance,
and I was there for 18 months,

and then I went on tour
because I just felt like, okay,

I want that experience and I want to
learn more about the craft.

And I went on tour for 3 and a half years
with Akram Khan, which was an amazing

experience when he was just starting off.

Yeah, brilliant.

So I was relighting
Michael Hulls' design, and they

- and then in the latter
of that touring period,

I basically then was, I designed a show
for Akram and then I toured with that.

And then about 3 and a half years
of touring, I decided, you know what,

I'm done with touring.

It was a fabulous experience.

I travelled the whole world
and managed amazing teams.

Um, but I was ready to do
design full-time.

So that's when I took the plunge to go
full-time and yeah,

haven't looked back since really.

PAUL: No, no, certainly not.

And you've done some amazing work,
like I said, across all those mediums.

And, and I, uh, obviously, you know,
we met through, uh,

dear friend and colleague Michael Vale,
because you and with Sally Cookson,

and then, uh, introduced us.

And, and like lots of these things,
and then we - you've started to work,

and I've really enjoyed that,
both as an actor and a director.

But I wanted to ask you, obviously
about your collaboration with Sally,

because I, I know Sally well,
but sadly it's never quite happened

that we've worked together yet.

But I think of her as such a generous,
collaborative theatre maker,

and you've obviously done a lot with her.

How does that relationship, uh,
I suppose, play out between you as a

lighting designer and Sally as a director?

Because you've got such a close,
instinctive relationship, it seems.

AIDEEN: Yeah, I mean, um,
Sally's an amazing collaborator,

and the room she has, you know,
the feel in the room is just very open.

She's so open to lots of things.

And the first show I did
with her was Jane Eyre.

PAUL: Yes, which was wonderful.
AIDEEN: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I've done,
you know, several shows with her,

as you said, but she had that - I mean,
I'm in the room a fair bit.

We just talk
lots, and she's open to suggestions

in the room, you know,
of, you know,

physically how the performers might be in
the space, or from a design point of view.

And because - and I think it's
basically the devised work.

I find devised work really exciting,
which is why I really enjoy

working with you guys.

As well.

But, um, it's another - I don't think
every lighting designer is

up for or suits devised work,
um, because the process is so -

a lot of the stuff comes together
towards the last week, and from -

PAUL: and everything is changing.

AIDEEN: Yeah, and with my discipline, you
have to get a kit list in you know,

probably a month before the fit-up,
and then you have to get a plan

together probably 2 weeks before.

So essentially you have to come up
with a palette of tools that will

just work for whatever crops up.

Yeah.

But with Sally, it's just such an open
collaborative process right

up until the show opens.

And I mean, she's got
nerves of steel in previews.

Oh my God.

I mean, she can trans - she'll just
change scenes, the order of scenes.

She'll do anything.

And it's - you really -
I remember the first show I did

with her and I was going, oh, wow.

Okay, this is amazing,
but also terrifying.

And then as I did more and more shows with
her, I you know, trusted her invaluably

to, to, to, um,
and I could see,

you know, the proof of the pudding
from when she does change something

and it's so much better for it.

PAUL: Yes, no, it's true, isn't it?

So much of it is about the trust
of something and building that dynamic.

And, and what about the relationship?

Obviously touched on one designer,
Michael, and what about the relationship

between the, uh,
lighting designer and the designer

I know it's very different depending
on who that is, but what would you say?

AIDEEN: I think no matter who it is, it's very -
it's a very close relationship.

So I would say, you know, the director,
the designer and myself

work very closely together.

Obviously there's other
collaborators as well.

If you have video design, it would be also
a core member and sound design as well.

Um, but I think visually,
um, the director, designer, uh,

and lighting designer are
like so close together.

Um, and I would be particularly
on a device project,

I'd be working with the designer all
the time in the room,

so problem solving or figuring out
what we're doing or how we're going.

Yeah, moving forward or solving problems.

Um, so it's Um, uh,
yeah, I mean, it's,

it's, it's, it - I'd be in close contact
with them weekly on a pro - on a project,

and I'd be on board
the project quite early on.

I like to come on board
before the white card.

Yes, before the design is finished,
so that I can work with the,

with the designer to figure out that world
and how we can light the world that they

have created or started with the director.

PAUL: Yeah, no, I - that all
of that makes total sense.

And I'm always surprised when
it - what you're describing is

not what is practised sometimes.

I always feel strange when I go, wow,
everything's been decided and then people

are arriving to try and deliver something.

But, um, um,
What would -

obviously you mentioned the brilliant
Paule Constable,

but I'm assuming that when you started
out, lighting design was mainly the

prevail of, uh, men, I would have thought.

And do you think that has improved?

Do you think that now we see more great
opportunities for lighting - female,

women lighting designers?

AIDEEN: Yeah, definitely, definitely.

There's lots of young women,
female lighting designers coming through.

I went to Profile Awards a couple of weeks
ago, and the amount of female

lighting designers that were in the room
at this award ceremony, I was going,

yes, things have really changed.

Brilliant.

Um, I think, I think that's
more on the design side of it.

On the technical production side of it,
it's still a little bit, uh,

there's still quite a few,
there are quite a few women,

but it's still a little bit more
male-centric,

but that is changing as well.

PAUL: Well, that's good.

It's good that things change,
that's for sure.

Aideen, it's been so lovely chatting
to you, and I think really fascinating

to get a bit of an insight into
how lighting works, I suppose,

on a practical level,
but also to hear you talk,

as I said, quite poetically about it.

I find that very, uh, very engaging.

There's something about that, like,
I think, oh yeah,

and I obviously look forward again
to our next collaboration very soon.

AIDEEN: It'll be fun.

PAUL: It will be - as always,
bring your Zorro mask.

I, I always, I,
I always finish by asking

my guests 7 rapid-fire questions.

You just have to say the first thing
that you want to say, and you can always

pass if you can't make your mind up.

Number 1, if you had to choose another job
and you could only choose between

these 2 professions, which would it be?

Would you be either a jockey or a chef?

AIDEEN: Oh, chef.

PAUL: Peter Pan or Wendy?

AIDEEN: Oh, Peter Pan.

PAUL: Yeah.

Dublin or London?

AIDEEN: Oh, that's tricky.

It depends on the capacity.

PAUL: You can pass if you like.

AIDEEN: Oh, I've got to say Dublin,
for God's sake.

PAUL: Yes, of course.

Potholing or mountain climbing?

AIDEEN: Uh, oh, potholing.

PAUL: Oh, you're good in enclosed spaces.
Very good.

Um, opera or dance?

AIDEEN: Dance.

PAUL: Ice cream sundae or apple pie?

AIDEEN: Oh, apple pie.

PAUL: In a house - I'm thinking about my kitchen
at home because we have some conflict

around lighting, so I needed
to get your view on something.

If you went into my kitchen Um, uh,
would you favour

spotlights which are sort of sunk
into the ceiling,

or a more audacious central light fitting
that hangs over the dining room table?

AIDEEN: I would go for the audacious central.

PAUL: Thank you, that is
the right answer, Aideen.

I will communicate that back to my family.
Thank you.

Excellent.

I can say it comes with some authority
and many years of experience in lighting.

AIDEEN: And you can also say that the ones
in the ceiling, they tend to overheat,

so you don't want that.

PAUL: Oh, that's a good idea.
Thank you.

A practical concern as well as aesthetic.

And I'm going to use both
of those over the weekend.

Aideen, it's been lovely chatting as ever,
and I look forward to catching up

in the room with you very soon.

Have a lovely summer.

AIDEEN: Thanks, Paul.
You too.

See you in The Three Musketeers!

PAUL: Yes, indeed.
Take care.

AIDEEN: Bye.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this
Idiot Podcast, please spread the word.