Paul:
Hello, and welcome to 'Regrets I've Had A Few'. I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of Told by an Idiot and this is a podcast where I talk to friends and colleagues delving into what made them the person they are today. Hello. This afternoon I'm chatting with one of Britain's most visionary theatre directors. Her unique style of the optical storytelling has taken her and our work around the world from the cliffs of Cornwall, to Shakespeare's Globe from Battersea arts centre to Broadway. She's a shining light of her generation and a dear old pal. Welcome Emma Rice.

Emma:
Hello, Paul. Gosh, that's made me blush.

Paul:
Well, well, it was, that I thought was a fitting way to start. First of all, thank you so much for doing this. Where are you at the moment hiding out? You look like you're under the stairs somewhere.

Emma:
I'm in the broom cupboard. I'm in Somerset, in our home. And this is actually Simon my partners, sound studio. So it looks more, my, where I'm working is much more chaotic. But this is Simon’s space.

Paul:
I thought it looked professional in every way. Now, when I when I was thinking about this podcast on our chat, I was realising that during the time we've worked on and off together for the last 21 years, I've often worked with you at times which coincide with major moments in your professional life, some of which you might not want to remember. And I just hope I'm not a jinx that I'm not the reason for anything. However, I was reminding myself of when I first worked with you on 'The Red Shoes', I think I'm right in saying that it was the first show of yours directing wise that came to a major London venue at Battersea Arts Centre. Would that be correct?

Emma:
It was, it absolutely was.

Paul:
And then later I performed in your brilliant production of 'The Little Match Girl' at the Globe, at a time when various things, extraordinary things began to happen. And then I was lucky enough to star in your first show for your new company. And as I thought about this, there's one thing that I always feel is constant when I work with you, no matter how stressful the situation you're in is, you're brilliantly focused on delivering what you're doing and what you're passionate about and what it means. So I'm going to jump right in at the deep end with a big question. How, what keeps you going?

Emma:
Ooh what a brilliant question. I, I don't. I mean I do feel very passionate about the stories I tell and why I'm telling them. But I find what keeps me going is finding myself in charge because when you have a room full of people looking at you, you have to think of something to tell them. Which is why I'm finding this period quite difficult because nobody's really looking at me which means I don't have much momentum to do anything. But there's nothing like people saying 'what's the idea?' to have an idea. So that drags me through and of course I sort of love being in charge. I don't know when it happened, I certainly don't quite know when I noticed it, because I certainly wasn't like that as a child and I wasn't like that in my early years in theatre. but I love being at the front of a room looking at all of the goodies in front of me it's not the power I love, it's the possibility I love. So if you combine the possibility of the people in front of you, with a story I care passionately about, which is pretty much everything I've ever done, then the ideas just come. And if you add that with the pressure that you have to have ideas then that's what keeps me going.

Paul:
I think that is so refreshing. Because so many people go ooh, you know, I'm not sure about being in charge. And it's so refreshing to hear you say it's something that you relish. And, and, and also the fact that you relish seeing things happening in front of you because you know, you and I obviously are cut from the same cloth. And so often people think ideas purely come from the page or from a script. And we know they don't, they they emerge in the corner of a room when someone crazy like Mike Shepherd is messing about with a beanbag or something. And I think as a director, you're brilliantly good at observing all of that. I think it was the great French film director Francois Truffaut said, part of the thing about being a director is endlessly having to answer questions as well. People coming up to you going, What? And you deal with that very well. What came, from a big question, I'm going to take you back to more the beginning if that's alright. Am I right in remembering that you were raised in Nottingham with your sister and your parents? Is that right?

Emma:
Correct. Yes.

Paul:
Have you, as a child of Nottingham, have you ever appeared in a production of Robin Hood?

Emma:
Ha! No I have not.

Paul:
If you were to be in a production of Robin Hood, who would you like to play?

Emma:
Well, Robin Hood.

Paul:
Of course. However, I always think of you, I'll come to style, I'll come to style later in our chat.

Emma:
There you go, that's my natural ego coming out.

Paul:
That is the best answer. However, I'm going to touch on style for a second because I think of you as a very stylish person and a very stylish director, so I could imagine, you being a very stylish Will Scarlet with your bow and arrow, and you know what I mean? There's something about him that's quite dashing. If you weren't offered the lead, of course.

Emma:
Which I never was, when I was an actor, I was never offered the lead. So that would be much more, but I like that. And of course, I'm very susceptible to, to everything. So I would accept your offer.

Paul:
I'm afraid at the moment, I'm not able to deliver the production of Robin Hood, I'm talking about, but as soon as I can, Will Scarlet is yours, I assure you. Another thing I often think about you when I think of you is dance and your passion and love for dance, and it's in all your work. And you talk a lot about how you obviously loved, you've always loved dance since you were little. And then I suppose my first question around regrets is, do you have any regrets that you weren't able to pursue dance in a performative sense? Or maybe you did? I don't know. Perhaps you've you feel you have?

Emma:
Um, yes, and no, I mean, I'm much more a creature of the body than I am of the voice. I don't, as an actor, I don't have a lovely voice, either as a singer or a speaker, and, and I don't, I don't take naturally to the spoken word. Now, obviously, words have a great place in theatre and in life. But I do find that the eloquence of what is unsaid, much more gripping and exciting and sensual. I mean, I think it you know what I mean, it's I love the style of your programme, but in truth, I have almost no regrets. I just, it's not really part of my being. Now, I bet you can push me to find a few. But largely, I don't regret anything, because there only is what is there, there isn't anything else. There's already an, actually, those of us that are directors you and I know that a show can go in so many different directions, the only job of a director is just say, "let's go this way, let's go this way" and to not worry about the paths not taken. The reality is the body gives up in dance is a very brutal, I did try and dance. It was clear my body was not going to take me any further. And it's really not worth worrying about it. But you know, as an actor, it's a much more, you know, you can be a bad actor and still feel that you haven't been discovered. Whereas I think with a dancer, you, it is really painfully clear that you're not a good dancer.

Paul:
Yes. I think I think you're absolutely right. I think it comes down to that thing of tangible skill.

Emma:
Yes.

Paul:
You know, if I if I was to go on stage tonight and play the violin, it would be in seconds, it would be clear that I couldn't whereas acting is not a tangible skill as you say you can get away with it. We can all have different views on it and you're right dance, you can kind of either do it or not to do it. But can I ask about your stage debut? Was that in dance or was that in a school play? Or when did you first get the showbiz bug?

Emma:
Ah, well I didn't do drama at school or dance I went to a very rough school I was terrified for five years and quiet and just literally counting off the days to be out and I did my O Levels because I'm old enough to have done O Levels not GCSEs and I dyed my hair blue and became a punk overnight literally sort of burned my uniform and put on the Gothic punk look. And I went and did, erm, I don't even, I went to an FE college it would be what would now be called a BTEC I guess. And did a drama course inner city Nottingham and that is where I started performing and never looked back. I mean, I just I sort of feel again I was quite instinctively clever to have not have done it at school. I think it would have it would have killed me physically and spiritually at that age. Whereas at 16 I met great friends who were friends for life and we lived for it we absolutely lived for messing about and you know doing everything we were it was it was like we were in a sort of Ken Loach Cliff Richard film in that we really were putting on a show but kind of in 1980s Nottingham.

Paul:
Well, that is a brilliant film, I would like to see a Ken Loach and Cliff Richard film. But of course Nottingham has such a brilliant and onwards beyond your time tradition of drama and performance, doesn't it? I mean, the whole Shane Meadows thing and all that sort of Midlands kind of East Midlands scene. So what followed college was it drama school?

Emma:
Yes

Paul:
...your progression.

Emma:
I went to the Guildhall where I was fairly unremarkable I think, again, you know, I think I, I can remember feeling almost actively, if only somebody could see what I was capable of, and somehow release, release it from me, then everything would be okay. And in truth they didn't you know, again I didn't have anything quite I mean like all of us sort of misfits I didn't quite look right, sound right. Nothing quite fitted and I didn't have an awful time. But neither did I sail through or excel I would say I was absolutely mediocre at drama school.

Paul:
It's interesting, isn't it because I often think of myself as obviously, sitting very much in the category of a character performer. You know, in the certainly in the main, how the mainstream views me and I think I was only fortunate to encounter Hayley and John Wright when I was at college otherwise, I don't know what would have happened? Well, I probably know I probably would have struggled to find work and as you say, would have been very kind of nondescript I imagine and so often so quickly, you're pigeon holed aren't you when you're younger as an actor, people go, ah you're that type of actor you're that type of, and you're very good, I think, at challenging the kind of idea of what people can do or who can play what type of role or even right back to when I first worked with you when you cast me to take over in 'The Red Shoes'. The performer was this very live as far as I can gather a live Portuguese actor, and then you cast me and I thought that was rather wonderful that you went in a completely different direction. Now people often ask me, what do you look for in an actor? When you're looking for someone and I was quite interested in this quote from a jazz musician, Stan Getz, when he was talking about jazz players and he said, what I look for are taste, courage, individuality and irreverence.

Emma:
Ooh lovely.

Paul:
I thought that was a rather lovely combination.

Emma:
Say them again Paul

Paul:
They are, he says, I look for taste, courage, individuality and irreverence.

Emma:
Well done Stan.

Paul:
I thought that was rather wonderful. But what, what is it that you look for when you're putting a team of performers together?

Emma:
Ooh, you've tripped me up immediately by saying a team because of course a team or have very many different players in it. So in a team, to use Mike Shepherd's analogy, you know, you're looking for strikers and midfielders you know, and some goalies, you need some people that are going to save the day. You need some people that are going to shine bright, and you need some great people that are going to set up the goals. But individually, do you know what, I I like people that are fun, curious, interested, I mean, I think the big thing is I like people that are looking outwards. I mean, you said earlier that you know directors have to listen to a lot of questions. I will do anything to avoid questions, I hate questions. And as you know, I run a room quite like a youth club. The minute I feel a question bubbling I say let's play ball or let's do a dance or let I sort of think that the less you talk about things, the more you can discover them and the problems sort of melt away. So I like people that are looking outwards. I love naughtiness. And yeah, individuality. I want unusual people who have a spirit of naughtiness, generosity and curiosity.

Paul:
Yeah, I couldn't agree more and, and your rooms are full of that. And I agree, far too much time in British theatre rooms I've spent discussing something when we should be trying something or doing something. So you mentioned the great Mike Shepherd. And, and look, I suppose the next big chapter I wanted to touch on in your life was Kneehigh, something, a company close to both our hearts but seminal in your life. I'm sure. I've probably asked you this before, but I can't remember. How did you meet them for the first time?

Emma:
I, I auditioned, unbelievably, I auditioned. I'd been working for a brilliant company called Theatre Alibi in Exeter and had sort of found, had found that I wanted to be working in a company, that I'd wanted to be devising, I wanted to be part of a creative process, and I'd moved to the south west. So it was sort of and there wasn't enough work. Alibi didn't have full time work, and in fact, Nikki Sved who still runs Theatre Alibi said you should be aware of Kneehigh you might really like them, and I wrote them a letter and they asked me to come down and audition. And it was hilarious because you know, this journey I was getting on a train going to St Austell which already feels like you're at the end of the world and then getting into a bashed up minivan and being driven along ever narrowing lanes, literally to the end of the planet to this tiny barn. And I can remember I mean, I was overwhelmed and sort of dumbstruck by the beauty and maverick wonder of it. You know, I'd been to drama school. I'd never seen people like this, but I knew immediately I want to be here. I want this job. I want to be part of this. I want to, I want these people to be my friends and that is such a sort of funny thing to say isn't it but you know, it's it takes years to make lifelong friends but I knew at this it was like love at first sight you know that you've still got to know some you've got to get to know somebody, you've got to put in the work you've but instinctively I, they had me at hello.

Paul:
So it was like coming home I suppose you didn't know but that kind of place where you thought actually this is where I belong, I suppose

Emma:
It was like that. And of course, you know the chapter that's missing is I'd been in Poland.

Paul:
Yes. Of course, yes.

Emma:
Which of course, in my early 20s, which was rural, it was in the middle of nowhere. Very driven, very physical, very maverick and sexy, but very tough as well. Very, there was not much joy. Joy was not a language that was welcome there. I didn't really understand what's going on. I was terrified again. And I felt I can remember going finding myself at the barns in Gorran Haven and thinking this is my happy Poland. Where I can find everything that I discovered in Poland but find it with people that will sing and dance and enrich my life. And I was right. I was right.

Paul:
It's a very brilliant, brilliant way of describing Kneehigh, this Happy Poland, my Happy Poland is very, what was the first show you performed in with them then?

Emma:
I was in 'Carmen Ravenheart'. And, it was directed by the late wonderful Bill Mitchell, who also auditioned me and when he rang me up after the audition. He said we would like you for Carmen, and I thought I'd be given part of Carmen. So I, I arrived in Cornwall with my bags with these people that I had decided would be my friends for life, fully expecting rather like I expected to play Robin Hood to play Carmen and it became apparent that he meant for the show Carmen, not the character Carmen. And I actually played the girlfriend who the soldier dumps I think her name is Michaela. But we didn't have names in this. And I had the sum total of two words to say. One was "no" and the other one was "smart". But I loved it. I loved it. It was crazy. It was very physical. We did we did it all because it was an outdoor show. All of it was outdoors. We had a samba band with us called Innocence. It was wild. It was carnival. And I played I played the bit, the bit part.

Paul:
No, but if I, if I think back to when I first really met that gang, and you were central to that, of course, and seeing some of those performances outdoors, you know, 'Hell's Mouth', in the quarry and stuff and very, very captivating. You know, very, very intoxicating. So I can imagine as an actor, thinking Yes, God, I want to be here. And what was your journey to directing? Was that something you were always interested in? Or did it slowly dawn on you? Or did, did someone provoke you?

Emma:
No it was not something I'd been interested in. And it didn't even slowly dawn on me. Bill Mitchell and Mike Shepherd realised I was a director before I did. I mean, I would have to say the clues were there, in that I was calling rehearsals on tour. And can you imagine Paul, if somebody did that to me or you? Yeah, I was happily calling rehearsals and yeah restaging and, and I did say to them, I have more to offer. I wanted to share all my experience from Poland. I was very enthusiastic. I've been doing quite a lot of choreography. So all the pieces were falling into place, because I was getting choreography work, which is ridiculous, because I wasn't a trained dancer. But I did have, I can see pictures on stage I can move people about so I was doing big shows. And I did some shows at the RSC completely out of my depth, but was actually getting a lot of skills in terms of managing a room and making big pictures. Then met Kneehigh then started directing, and they just said, for goodness sake, Emma have a show, which is so generous, isn't it? And I said no, no, no, I'm very happy to just direct from the sidelines and they said no, Emma just have a show. And I did and I directed 'The Itch' first, which was a complete sort of filleting of a Jacobean tragedy for the outdoors. And I cast myself in the lead.

Paul:
Very good.

Emma:
Thank you. I'm gonna direct, at least I can finally give myself the main part. And then my second show was 'The Red Shoes'. And that was the show in truth when I wasn't acting and I thought wait a minute, this is gonna, this is exciting me. I never I didn't believe that directing could take the place of acting for me. And it's so has, you know, I can't imagine it now. Really. The buzz for me the adrenaline the thing that keeps me going is directing. And it was Mike that saw it.

Paul:
It's interesting that you say, that moment when you realise how much you can get from directing. And when things come together like that. It's it's an interesting moment, isn't it, where you go, actually, this is what I want to do. Now, I've always, and continue to enjoy the balance of both. But I remember a moment where Hayley and I co directed and we're in it, and I thought, I don't want to do that, again, that is so stressful. I'll either be one or the other. But it, it's interesting, I look back at 'The Red Shoes'. Now obviously, when I came into it, you'd already done it once before. And then you obviously were bringing it to London, as we said, but it was the kind of looking back on it, it was the confidence of everything that I thought was so exciting, the style felt so robust, and, and, and the flavour of the show was so strong. Did that surprise you? Or did you have all of this, in terms of I suppose 'The Red Shoes' in relation to that story was a story you always wanted to do?

Emma:
No, another true story, which is that having done my first directing, 'The Itch' Bill and Mike said, What do you want to do next? And not being a director not thinking that way, I had not thought of another project. And I opened my mouth and I said, 'The Red Shoes'. And they said, Great, let's do it. And I can remember thinking bloody hell, I'd better go and work out what this story is. And the first thing I did was watch the Powell and Pressburger movie.

Paul:
Yeah.

Emma:
And I thought what have you done, Emma, this is a tiny company in the middle of Cornwall, and you've just pitched this big show about orchestras and ballet. This is a disaster. And then I thought I'd better read the source material. So I read the Hans Christian Andersen. And it hit me like a train, Paul, is that I mean, I got married quite young, I didn't think I was young at the time, but I'd been married. And my marriage had broken down by the time I was in my very early 30s. And I really, really struggled with that. I mean, it was not something I, I certainly was not from a family or I wasn't brought up to be somebody that would have a broken down marriage within, you know, the first five years of, you know, tying the knot, or whatever they call it. And I was in great turmoil. But you know, in truth, I had something to say. And that was, I thought, this is it. This is about my internal battle with, this needs to express myself and it hadn't really been there, it was emerging in 'The Red Shoes'. It's like this, this tidal wave of experience that I wanted to share and explore. And I think there was an extraordinary confidence, which I'm quite nostalgic about, you know, I look back at that and I think, gosh, there was a, there wasn't certainty, it was the opposite. It was like it was almost like being a daredevil. It was like throwing yourself out of a plane. I know what this is, I know, what these clogs represent. I understand the, the torment. And it wasn't that I, you know, conceived this perfect production. It just like I thought that I'm in this, this is the world that I'm in this is the metaphorical world that I'm living and you can feel the energy, even sort of 20 years later, you can feel the uncertainty from that. But I think it was coming together of my directorial awakening with a really personal moment in my life.

Paul:
Well, I, it's interesting, that's a brilliantly obviously articulated response to it. And I kind of, I kind of think it was kind of extraordinary being on stage in that show, because what you've just said is true. Everything felt very underpinned, everything, you didn't have to articulate all of this or explain it or even explain it to us, but it was very underpinned by something really powerful. And then you combine that with the kind of theatrical take you had on it. And I can see why it was a kind of show that took people completely by storm. And then obviously, you then went on to do a raft of extraordinary shows with Kneehigh. And, and then of course, you then became director at the Shakespeare's Globe, which I thought was a brilliant appointment. And one of the things I loved was not actually working there, that was a joy, of course, and I was thrilled to work with you there and be directed by you there. But one of the things I loved was standing in, often in the Groundlings watching your shows at the Globe and seeing an audience, particularly the younger audience, go absolutely mad for it. And rarely still, for me, rarely do people talk enough about the audience. I've always felt that you were a director who considered the audience and I'm amazed still how many directors don't, how often they continue to be quite boring in what they're doing in the belief that the audience will find it entertaining. Whereas I think you've always been someone who thinks about the audience, who considers the audience in relationship to what you're doing, and I thought it was perfect for the Globe and not going to dwell on events that took place, only to ask one question which again, you've sort of answered already, but in the kind of awful dark moments then, did you ever have any moment when you thought I wished I'd stayed in Cornwall? Why have I put myself through this? Or not or never really? Did you just feel?

Emma:
Oh, gosh, yes, yes. And no. I mean, I think it's a brilliant question, Paul. I think the reality was, is I did want to get out of Cornwall I didn't know I did. I think I knew I had another big adventure in me. And I don't think I ever regretted and and I think that's what happened. I think history has shown that the Globe got me out of Kneehigh and got me into Wise Children so that you can I can now package it in a very as a very nice, you know, stepping stone wherever you but it when I was in it, of course, I had regrets and I was agonised by it, I would replay I don't know whether that's quite the same as a regret. I would replay obsessively conversations and board meetings and the interview, you know, and I, one of the things that I often say in life is, please don't let me ever have to testify in a trial. My memory is such a sort of vibrant tool, which I don't think has that much connection to the truth. But, but the reason I say it is when you think, you know, when you're in trouble like that in a situation, and people are saying that you they have been misled by you. And you're trying to remember an interview that was maybe 20 months ago, which was not recorded or notated, and you you drive yourself mad thinking, how could I have misrepresented myself? Literally, how could I, I didn't know what the game was. I didn't know what the situation was. So it's not quite the same as regrets, but it was fairly tortured, and tortuous and I, and it lasted for a long, long time, that sort of replaying the movie over and over again, and slightly re-editing it because the memory is useless. You know, I mean, you and it's only from your perspective. And thankfully, that's, that's gone. And I now see it as, as a wonderful. Without the politics, if somebody had said, Emma, would you like to run the Globe for two years with a completely free hand? I'd have said absolutely. And that's what happened. So if you if you can sort of fill it out, if you could liposuction out the pain, and the surprise and the shock, it was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. And like you say, the audience, I will, you know, take that to my grave, the thrill, the exhilaration of that audience. And they told me how wonderful Shakespeare is.

Paul:
yes, I couldn't agree more, I think, you know, if that's the thing, we constantly have to learn from an audience in some shape, or form, and the Globe is the best place to do it. But coming full circle, like you said, you out of that comes your own company. And it always felt a natural progression to me, as a friend on the outside, it didn't feel unusual at all, it felt like ultimately, that's where you would end up having a company, you've always loved touring, you've always loved the idea of being on the road. And that kind of, and having a company with, that you could shape with your identity and the stuff that you do with the collaborators. And, as I said, very fortunate to be part of an extraordinary first show, which in some ways felt really bold that you call the company Wise Children and you were doing, your first show was 'Wise Children' what I always thought that was the kind of fearless nature of you sometimes that you think I'm going to go for it. And I said this to you before, but I thought the synergy between you and Angela Carter is ultimately what made that a brilliant show. You do, you did what the best adaptations do. You took something from the original, you captured the spirit of it, but you reinvented it and I suppose what my question around that is, was there, it must have been, there must have been some pleasure for you there having gone through a really difficult time to sit in the Old Vic Theatre and see that response to an original piece of work you'd made.

Emma:
Oh god, yes, yes. But you know, but there's no but the answer to that is yes. But the thrilling moment for me, will always be the final run in a rehearsal room, not the audience. There is that private moment when this thing has come together and it's really just me and some of my you know, creative collaborators next to me and the electricity in the room, it feels like you've captured moonbeams and pulling them into an actual planet in the centre. And you know that the thing about the moment with an audience is good for the ego but it's also bad for the you know, for the soul because that's when you start wondering whether it's going to be a success and whether the reviews will be is when the doubts creep in. And you know, the attacks might happen, you know, and I, for me, the moment of sort of true, true wonder is just before we share it with the world when you think look what we did, look what our spirits brought together, and you know, the, and you know you do of course, it's sort of carved out of my, my experience and my, my work, but everybody in the room has brought their own humanity to it. So what you're looking at is a tapestry of such love, and vulnerability and surprise, and yeah, nothing beats that for me. Nothing.

Paul:
That is wonderful. Emma, just before we finish, I want to ask you a few rapid fire questions. You just need to answer with your first response to the question I give you, it'll be very clear and straightforward, what I'm doing. Here we go. Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly?

Emma:
Gene Kelly

Paul:
Tank top or cardigan?

Emma:
tank top

Paul:
Mountain climbing or deep sea diving?

Emma:
Oh God, mountain climbing but neither please

Paul:
David Bowie or Kate Bush?

Emma:
Kate Bush

Paul:
Barcelona or Paris?

Emma:
Barcelona

Paul:
Tim Burton or Wes Anderson?

Emma:
Wes Anderson

Paul:
Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny?

Emma:
Bugs Bunny

Paul:
Blue Peter or Magpie?

Emma:
Blue Peter

Paul:
Order or chaos?

Emma: Chaos

Paul:
Emma, thank you so much. It's been so lovely to chat with you and, and share, hear your thoughts on directly but thanks so much for dropping in. I really hope we can see each other soon for a glass of
wine or a beer or something.

Emma:
Oh, I'd love that I've loved every minute. Thanks, Paul. It's been a pleasure.

Paul:
Bless you Emma, take care. All the best.

Emma:
Oh and to you. Thanks for everything Paul.