PAUL: Hello, and welcome
to Regrets I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of Told
by an Idiot, and this is a podcast where I

talk to friends and colleagues delving
into what made them

the person they are today.

Hello and welcome.

My guests this month are
three extraordinary designers.

What connects them all is that they've all
been recipients

of the Naomi Wilkinson Award,
and they are forging a unique visual path

which I, for one, will be
continuing to follow with interest.

Welcome, Sonja Smullen,
Lulu Tam, and Ioana Curelea.

Hello, everybody, friends.

Thank you so much for popping in.

We were chatting pre the recording about
what would the word be for a group

of designers, so I will encourage our
listeners to come up

with a term I don't have one.

Anyway, obviously,
we're going to talk about

the Naomi Wilkinson Award,
which does link you in some way.

We'll touch on that later and the work
that we've done all together

with Told by an Idiot and you.

But I'd like to start with something
which is a bit different to my normal

questions is obviously you come
from three very different places.

My question, really, to kick off with,
how do you feel your place of birth

has shaped your visual imagination?

I'm going to go to Lulu first.
Hello, Lulu.

What about that question?

LULU: Hello.
Hi.

Well, thank you.

Yeah, thanks for giving me
the first question to answer.

Yes.

I mean, to be honest,
it's different from other people who have

a visual art or artistic background.

I didn't come across as
art when I was little.

I haven't went to a theatre
to see a play when I was a little.

The first theatre performance that I saw
is when I was doing my BA study,

when I was helping designing the show.

I think my background is very different.

I think I only started to study art when I
was in high school

and then go into the training of fine
arts and then go to my BA study.

I think the first ever theatre production
or art or exhibitions that ever come

across is actually the contemporary art.

I think because I haven't really seen
really classical of theatre or art.

The opening for my art practise is
contemporary and avant-garde.

That really shaped my practise is When I
was seeing things, I always want

to see things in a particular way.

I guess that's the influence.

But yeah, nobody in my family was
doing arts or anything related.

I'm the lonely wolf.

PAUL: That's very interesting as well that your
experience of seeing theatre

happened relatively late.

That's quite an interesting notion.

Ioana, how about you?

IOANA: Unlike Lulu, I did have
contact with art very early on.

I'm classically trained in fine art,
and I wasn't really interested

in theatre beyond...

Romania has a really rich
culture of puppet theatre.

I remember going to the shows with my mum,
and it was just pure magic.

Then progressively got interested
in other things and more political things.

I think coming to the UK with this
background and very structured fine art

where they're trying to make you
into a mini version

of themselves and then getting the opening
to what experimental theatre

is and what devised theatre is.

I think what really solidified it for me
was going to see DV8's John,

I think at the Barbican.

It was one of the first
performances I've seen.

I cried in the theatre and I
don't cry in public ever.

It's a bit wanky, but it was
quite transformative for me.

I was sat there and I was like,
This is what I want to do.

PAUL: That's a really...

I want to talk about influence later on,
but that's very interesting.

I also think, Should you
ever write your memoirs?

That's a very good title "I cried
in the theatre and I never cry in public".

You should use that if you do.

Sonya, how did Glasgow, Scotland, and
everything shape your visual imagination?

SONYA: Well, I just think the city's a bill
of interesting characters and people.

I think the people
bring that strange quality of the

absurdity that you can find in theatre.

But I'm similar to Lulu.

I wasn't really going
to the theatre much at all.

I actually studied music, so I went to
music school and I did violin and piano.

I remember sitting in the music
history lesson and we once...

The first interaction to live performance
in theatre was sitting watching

Wagner's Ring cycle.

And I thought this...

It was a YouTube video.

And I thought, What is
going on on that set?

It looks shit.

And I was really intrigued at the fact
that this music was paired

with this opera set design.

And that was the first initial
interaction with theatre and live

performance, what that could be.

I think that led me to think about
the spaces in Glasgow

and how they could transform.

PAUL: Interestingly, I've just been
yesterday reading some

short stories by Alasdair Gray because I
love his writing, and particularly Lanark,

which is obviously a brilliant novel.

But the way he combines illustration
and literature is so amazing, I suppose-

SONYA: Do you know what's really funny.

It was my birthday recently.

My mum bought me the book Lanark.

Yeah, I'm reading it now.
Yeah.

PAUL: Astonishing thing.

And you're right,
Glasgow is an extraordinary city

full of extraordinary things.

If I may, I might just pop back to Ioana
because you talked about puppetry

in Romania and Having taken Told
by an Idiot there on two or three

occasions, I've always loved
visiting and touring in Romania.

Do you have a memory of a very early show
that your mother took

you to, a puppet show?

Can you remember anything from when you
were quite little or or not,

and what effect it had on you?

IOANA: Yeah, it was actually
Romanian folk stories that were staged,

and it was almost like a series
of sketches intertwined,

made into one big narrative.

I think one of the things that really
stood out for me was just the magic

and the craft of the puppets.

Even though they didn't look human,
they almost felt more human to me

as a four-year-old compared to a lot
of the grownups I was seeing around me.

I think having that realisation really
early on really made me think about things

differently
as well in terms of when I was drawing

at a very basic level at that age
and how I was seeing things.

PAUL: That's interesting.

The impact something had as to how you
then, even at a young age, how you're

reimagining something for yourself.

That's very interesting.

You have all very different
beginnings and ways into...

Lulu, at what point
you talk about not growing up in a world

where theatre was something that was
happening or around you,

but at what point did you
start to feel, This is something I'd

like to do and I'd like to study it.

How did that happen Then how did
you end up where you did study?

Was there a key moment or was it gradual?

LULU: I think there's a key moment and then they
gradually develop

because when I'm going to study in my BA,
I just blindly choose a subject

like film, TV, and stage design.

At the second year, we can actually
choose which direction that we want to go.

Set is what the direction I want.

Then there was a scenography studio,
particularly studying well

and practise a lot of…

Well, I have a lot of practise in theatre.

That's when it started,
the second year of my undergraduate study.

Then that's how everything really went.

Then after three years of studying,
I really want to further continue my

study, particularly
in scenography and theatre design.

Yeah, that's.

PAUL: What about you, Sonya?
At what point…

I always assume when I think of the three
of you, when I first encountered you,

obviously in the workshops that the award
will come to know me,

we will consider it shortly,
but watching you create and play,

in a sense, which is what we do at Told
by an Idiot, and then obviously

collaborating with it.

I have an image of you all,
maybe I'm wrong, but making things from

quite an early age in some shape or form.

So Sonya, when did you start to think,
oh, this is something I might want to do?

And how did you then
pursue the idea of training

and where you had then wanted to go?

SONYA: I think it was, to be honest,
I think you choose at a really young age,

especially in the UK,
what you're meant to study.

And I think there's this immense pressure
of figuring out at the age of 16

what the hell I was going to do.

And I think I had this mind map that I
created of all the things that I liked.

And initially I thought it
was going to be costume.

And then I had this
image in my head of sitting in the room

just in a sweatshop
on my own making like...

I was like, oh.
I was like, yeah, I don't want to do that.

And then I think videography
was another idea.

And then I thought, Oh, too tech-heavy.

But I've always loved
stop motion animation.

So I think it was to do with playing
with scaled miniature things

and how that could move forward.

And it's the same thing like scenography.

I didn't even know it
existed in terms of theory.

So I think it was just finding that out
and seeing that there was a course

in that and thinking, Okay,
I'm going to try it, see how it is.

PAUL: Excellent.

Obviously,
for you guys who work with Told

by an Idiot and collaborate with me
on show, three very different shows,

which we'll talk about.

The connection sometimes
between direction and design,

we'll come to that in a second, but
does it ever feel that the design,

the notion of designing for the stage or
whatever that is as a thing,

does it ever feel quite solitary?

Because I'm curious sometimes.

It's obviously I meet you and I meet
designers in a very, usually a very

creative collaboration and conversation.

But I'm also conscious that you
spend a lot of time on your own.

How does that feel?

Like I said, does it feel
quite solitary sometimes?

IOANA: I
don't particularly find it solitary

because I have very slowly moved into very
community-based theatre

and very collaborative.

The
time I'm actually spending on my own doing

the research
and the model making and all those

ity-bitty small technical things is much
less than the time I actually spend

with other creative people in the room.

But I might be saying that because I'm
also solitary as a person, so I'm not-

PAUL: You're comfortable with solitude?
IOANA: I am indeed.

PAUL: Chapter one of your book, of course,
Comfortable with Solitude.

IOANA: Leave me alone.

PAUL: Please leave me alone.

Lulu, how about you?

Does it ever feel solitary?

LULU: Yeah, definitely.

I think it's a process of when you are
designing or researching or creating some

visuals, making models,
you are in this solitary zone.

You are doing this on yourself.

But then is the moment of having this
discussion that the sharing

is the collective discussion.

It's like move out the box
and move in the box all the time.

You just have to come back all the time.

But I quite enjoy the the the
energy between them.

PAUL: That's it, yes.

It's interesting you say to go from
quite focused solo work to suddenly being

certainly in Idiot rooms,
which can be quite wild and quite

anarchic, to a hopefully controlled chaos.

I think the three of you do that.

Certainly, in my experience,
very, very well to do that.

Let's come to the Naomi Wilkinson Award.

For listeners,
Naomi Wilkinson was a wonderful designer

that we met, as Told
by an Idiot, Hayley and I.

I think about five or six shows
into our life as a company.

Naomi's work was recommended to us by
another director, and we met with her.

At that point,
pre stuff being done on computer,

she bought her
portfolio to a café in Soho,

and Hayley and I looked at it and went,
Wow, this is fantastic.

Then Naomi went on to do
design for us across 10 years.

I've said this to you,
but she very much shaped our visual

aesthetic and how things look
and how they move and all of that.

Sadly, she died,
and then we set up something that we

wanted to remember her, a legacy,
and we wanted that to be a real practical

living legacy for designers,
young female designers.

The prize is to design a show.

The downside is you have to collaborate
with me as the director,

but we're not going to touch on that.

Obviously, the three of you entered
and won it, and it is a prize to win.

I'm just curious as to, A,
how you first heard about the award,

and B, what made you apply?
Sonya.

SONYA: I actually first heard of the award from
one of the technicians at my Uni, Tyson.

He said, You should check out this award.
It's right up your street.

Because I was talking about
a site-specific design and devised

theatre and wanting to get into that.

He knew you guys,
and I thought, Oh, great.

So did a bit of research,
and it was great.

PAUL: I remember Tyson very much.

So thank you, Tyson,
for recommend that to you.

Lulu, how did you hear about it?
What made you apply?

LULU: Well, not that embarrassed Sonya,
because I couldn't even remember.

Because I think
at that time, because basically my

professional practise is when
I'm busy I don't look for work.

When I think that, Oh,
I need to fill with more projects,

I started looking something.

I think I constantly would Google stage
design prize or stage design award,

something like that,
and think it just pop up on Google.

PAUL: Well, I'm very glad it popped up, Lulu.
I'm very glad.

Ioana?

IOANA: I was completely oblivious to the outside
world and had no idea I was entered

in this competition by Michael.

PAUL: Michael Vale.

IOANA: Michael Vale, the legend, the man himself.

I just got an email from Jen asking
for a portfolio, and I was like,

Oh, what is this?

I just sent my portfolio,
not expecting to hear back, really.

PAUL: Well, you certainly did hear back.

You touched on something there that's very
important to us,

which is the notion of how, as a company,
we try to connect with

collaborators across all ages,
all demographics, all of that,

particularly the award, looking for it
to support a younger visual imagination.

We're always interested in trying
to work with a more experienced designer.

How did you find that notion of having,
I suppose, mentoring in some

way during the award?

Was that useful?

Was it something you found was a nice to
have a slightly separate sounding board?

SONYA: Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's just
for me, I mean, in any job that I get,

I wish I had a mentor just to check
in and say, am I doing this right?

Because this It's something with every
project with the different

people that you work with.

It's almost like a new job.

It's a new way of working.

And I think it's understanding
the dynamic of that.

And I I think with Angela,
it was great to just be able to chat about

our different processes and how
she would have done something differently,

or to her, this is an interesting way.

It's like a give and take.

I'm giving her something and she's giving
me something, and it's

really useful in that sense.

PAUL: But I suppose it's also
interesting, isn't it?

Because like you say, it's a dialogue.

I totally agree with what
you said at the beginning.

Unofficially, and they don't know they're
my mentors, but there are people in life

that are very much my mentors
and will always remain so.

People like Jos Houben and John,
John Wright, who founded the company.

Those dialogues and conversations,
I I think are crucial, vital,

I think, as it moves forward.

Now, you each obviously did
three very different shows.

Obviously, as winners of the award,
you were then presented with an idea

that you then had to design.

They were very different as well in form.

Obviously, Ioana, you designed brilliantly
for us Charlie and Stan,

a devised piece about the early life
of Charlie Chaplin and Stan Laurel.

Lulu, you did our reinvention of a script
called The Killing of Sister George.

Sonya, you've just done our adaptation
of a children's picture book called

How Does Santa Go Down the Chimney?

Obviously, on paper, very eclectic.

We were very keen with the award that each
time when we give the award,

it's the something
in form that feels very different as well.

I suppose my question is,
you're very different designers,

of course you are, but you all responded,
if I think back on it,

I was thinking about this this morning,
to the provocation of what those things

were in a very, very obviously
interesting way and reinvented that.

Could you remember,
I was thinking about very early

conversations with the three of you,
but can you remember your first reaction

to the thing you were going to design?

Because I think very deliberately,
as part of the award,

we don't announce what the thing is
because we don't want people to become

obsessed with this idea of what they
might design, if that makes sense.

It was only later on that we said to you,
Oh, this is what you're going to do.

What was your first, for instance, Lulu,
what was your first response to the play,

The Killing of Sister George?

LULU: Yeah,
I think that's

a really good one because that's more
text-based and recreation of the '60s.

Then you have to go into that period
quite a lot in terms of research.

Then what I really like is
the conversation at the beginning where we

have during the interview, when I actually
asked to do a visual of that play.

I think the moment of when you were saying
the foley idea with reference with what I

read in the script is really
just like click together.

I think that's the moment, Oh,
this is really interesting.

This is really exciting.

I think particular later
when it go to the R&D?

I really enjoy the process of how you work
sweetly in the space

altogether with the actors.

PAUL: Yeah, that's interesting, of course.

Sometimes there is one
key thing, isn't it?

The foley was obviously in that place
quite crucial because the central

character is a radio
performer in a radio show.

Playing with that idea, I I can see why.

Ioana obviously, in a sense,
of the three awards we've given,

yours probably had the least to go on.

I remember obviously saying to you,
this isn't a documentary about

I wanted to delve into the past, the
future and the world of the imagination.

I remember saying to you,
the only thing I do know is I wanted

to take place on this ship
because they did sail in reality

from Southampton to New York.

I thought the ship and the journey
obviously works as both I think

quite literal and more as a metaphor.

I remember you coming back very early on
in the process to show me some early

ideas, and you talked about this idea,
which I really liked,

which then carried all the way through,
was the idea of a ship that's been lying

at the bottom of the ocean
and has been dragged back up.

I loved that idea, which then we ran with.

If you can remember,
what made you land on something like

that after we chatted quite early on?

IOANA: I think because my instinct was also,
this isn't a documentary,

this isn't a piece of film necessarily,
even though it has quite cinematic moments

brilliantly crafted by our creative team.

I think
it was very much instinctual and very much

created around the myth and memories
and seeing the sketches within

the show as, is it a memory?

Is this something that happened?

Is it something reimagined?

And a sunken ship, the myth of the sunken
ship just felt really

appropriate for that.

PAUL: Yeah, no, I totally get that.

Sonya, we've we've just finished working,
obviously, and the show continues.

One thing I really loved and continue
to love was the conversations we had

around influences,
because on one level, the book is

very much a children's picture book.

It's a beautiful book,
the way it's designed.

Obviously, I love what the book is
about in a slightly existential way.

But I loved our conversations around
influence, and sometimes influences

that you might think that's a weird
influence to have on this, just bring

to this children's picture book.

As we come towards the end of this lovely
discussion, I'm probably going to ask this

to the two of you as well,
but I'll start with Sonya.

I'm sure there's many, many,
many influences on your work,

whatever it is that you're doing.

But could you talk about
it could be something, it could

be a film, it could be an artist.

Is there something that remains very
central as an influence to how

you see theatre and design?
In general?

SONYA: Yeah.

Oh, I I think for me,
I'm a film, I'm a film girl.

Michel Gondry has always
been his animations.

Monty Python is a classic one.

I mean, it's clear in the book.

I think that's something that's
always been carried for it.

But also painters.

I mean, for this show in particular,
I remember just seeing Peter Bruegal

in the scene of the landscape.

Yeah, I think it changes.

I try not to have...

There is always going to be a reoccurring
influence just because I am a person

who carries things onto
one project or another.

But I try to change it
up and keep it diverse.

PAUL: Well, I like the fact that the two...

This again feels very Told by an Idiot
that you can have influences

that on paper feel wildly apart.

From Brurgal to Michel Gondry,
I like that our work accommodates

that very wide reference
of influence like yours does.

Ioana?

IOANA: I think similarly to Sonya,
heavily influenced by film as well.

David Lynch will forever live in my heart.
PAUL: Indeed.

IOANA: I think, again,
because I had the education of it,

I'm very fond of especially grotesque
paintings, I think,

and Otto Dix and Egon Schiele.

There's a lot of that influence
in how I design the costumes as well.

PAUL: I can see that.

I can see that very clearly in Charlie
and Stan, very clearly, for sure, yeah.

IOANA: But I think one other influence,
which I think since I've started teaching

has become, I think,
stronger is

other people's ideas and work and how
working in a community Actually, impacts

that in a more ritualistic sense as well.

How we perceive that as a collaborative
practise and the influence just

those people can have on your work.

PAUL: Excellent.
I get that.

Lulu, influences?

LULU: I came across with Romeo Castellucci
before I came to the UK to study.

That director and also a visual artist,
like theatre designer,

has been constantly an influence.

I I think it's just the way he create the
project, create the experience

for the audience, constantly challenging
the audience, particularly using lots of…

I can't even use babies, children, ritual,
animals, and all of that,

so sometimes even horrified the audience.

I think that concept constantly make me
thinking when I was doing the design,

I want to create new experience
for the audience and to create new work.

Yeah, that's my

PAUL: Yeah, no, I see what you mean,
and I always feel it with it.

It's like all of life is
presented in some way.

As you say, sometimes quite dark
and grotesque and sometimes comic as well.

No, I get exactly what you mean.

Guys, it's been really
lovely chatting to you.

It's been lovely to see you all together.

You are brilliant designers,
and it's been great to get

an insight into how you see things.

I think our listeners will be very
intrigued by, as I said,

you don't always get a flavour of where
design starts or what begins it or what

ignites it.

So thank you very much,
and I will see you all very soon.

IOANA: It's been a pleasure.

LULU: Thank you so much for having us.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this
Idiot podcast, please spread the word.