Paul
Hello, and welcome to Regrets, I've Had a Few. I'm Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of Told by an Idiot and this is a podcast where I talk to friends and colleagues, delving into what made them the person they are today.

Hello, I'm here today chatting with my dear old friend Mandy Lawrence, Mandy, how are you?

Amanda
I am very well. So lovely to see you.

Paul
It's very nice to see you. Now if it's OK, I'm not going to dwell too much on the terrible situation of lockdown as we're about to enter another one. However, you were telling me earlier about the stress of getting your son into a school and then the school closed down and then getting him back in - it's not straightforward is it?

Amanda
No, it's a French farce. We're getting there, we're getting there.

Paul
But you're enjoying Bristol?

Amanda
Yes I am, because we don't know it that well apart from touring to the Old Vic. And a little bit at the Tobacco Factory. But yeah, it's good, but I mean, everything's been shut, I don't really know it. But I've been wandering around and going to the playgrounds with my son, so..

Paul
When eventually it opens, you can see what Bristol has to offer in a more in depth way.

Amanda
I'll have a look.

Paul
Now, I should say, obviously, we've known each other for a very long time, we've acted together and directed together and I'm not going to spare your blushes, you are for me one of the few actors who I'd watch literally do anything. So if you want to start painting your wall at home, I will watch you do that, because you are eminently watchable and a supreme talent. Anyway, I wanted to go back to the beginning or near the beginning if I may, Mandy, and then we'll we'll touch on various things as we go along. Am I right that you were born in Devon?

Amanda
That's it. Newton Abbot.

Paul
Newton Abbot. Well, I hope you won't mind, you're probably, I can see your face now, as I'm about to share something about Devon and in relation to you actually, one of my favourite memories of any - I can see you laughing. Do you want me to stop? You know where I'm heading? No, you don't mind? Well, I have to share this with the listeners because it is still one of my favourite memories of any, any rehearsal period. As you remember, recall, we were rehearsing a play called Playing the Victim, which Told by an Idiot did with the Royal Court and the wonderful Richard Wilson was directing it. And it was a bit of a departure for us as a company and I think for a lot of the actors like yourself who worked maybe more through improvisation and physicality. And Richard has a more psychological approach to play. Very early on, we were sat in a circle and the play was written by two brothers called the Presnyakov Brothers from a place called Ekaterinburg. And as they were in rehearsal, as we sat in a circle, quite intense focus, Richard wanted us to say the word Ekaterinburg like we came from there. So he went around the circle and said, "Where do you come from?" And one of the actors said, "Ekaterinburg". And next question, "Where do you come from?" "Ekaterinburg". And this went on, as it went around the circle until it came to you. And he said, "Where do you come from?" And you said, "Devon". And that to me, it is so joyous, that memory.

Amanda
And I was so nervous Paul! I was trying to get it right!

Paul
Oh my god, I'm laughing now. I can see Hayley's face as well. It was so wonderful. But it was such a joyous memory of that. We'll come back to that later. I had to say that. But I'm, I'm guessing, I might be wrong Mandy, but I'm guessing there was no show business in your family or relatives or anything?

Amanda
No, no, absolutely nothing. No, I just loved doing drama when I was little, but no, I've got three brothers, who just have no interest in that at all.

Paul
And was there a particular teacher or someone that got you into it? How did you get into?

Amanda
No, it was really interesting, I always remember at school trying to, like always being in the background, you know, and Nativity plays and desperate to be Mary. You know, just having the tinsel round my head and being one of the angels at the back and really, you know, dreaming of being Mary or whoever, you know, whoever, but never being really...that was in primary school, in secondary school, trying to get at the front or trying to do something but never being asked or trying to get involved. And then um, and it wasn't really and then there was one teacher, I think probably when I was in the fourth year of secondary school, so what we're 14, 15, and there was a play called Going Solo and it was a devised piece. And I was singing in it and and I did this song and I could sing and then suddenly I got noticed a bit but it took...and I got my hair cut at the same time. I think that helped.

Paul
It's a funny thing isn't it, because I don't know about you, I was similar, my dad was an electrician, my mom was a dinner lady. So there was no context for show business at all. But even as I got interested in it, and it kind of became a vague idea, I kind of kept it to myself. I didn't want to share with anyone too much. How was that with you?

Amanda
Exactly the same. I didn't tell anyone. I mean, I loved it, I had this, you know this thing inside of you, that's burning away or you're, you're constantly eyes widened to that, to drama if you know what I mean, but like, you know, my dad was unemployed, we lived on benefits and my mum a housewife with four children. Yeah, it was that kind of, without sounding, you know, it was just what it was. But I had this whole other thing, like many, you know, we all have this creativity going on inside of us. I just happened to find a little gateway when I was 14, 15, in this devised play. But you know, I think about my brothers and like, one taught himself to play a little keyboard, another one loved...you know, we've all got it, haven't we within us, it's just if you're given that gateway,

Paul
I couldn't agree more, I couldn't agree more. And I think we see more of it, hopefully now, in a strange way, while we're all locked down and separate is, I've been amazed by some of the people in our road, when we clapped the NHS, there was an older chap opposite who came out and played the violin in the street, and he was amazing. And I'd only ever seen him walk up the road. I didn't know him at all. And I think you're right, the notion that we all have something inside is very true. So how did your parents react when you said I want to go and study drama then? What was the reaction to that?

Amanda
Well, not good. They wanted me to be a music teacher. So they were trying to get me...I played the violin, not as good as the man up the road I don't think. But I was pretty shocking. And then, and they really want to have an idea of me to be a certain thing, do you know what I mean? And, and then I got into occupational therapy school at Exeter. Yeah, to be...I would have been awful! And then I saw a prospectus in the sixth form for Bretton Hall college. And it was just some people in legwarmers, and all in black doing different positions. And I just loved it. I just went, and I remember, it was like an epiphany, I just went, I want to do this, I want to go there. And I sort of pulled out. And I told my mum and dad and they just said, you're a fool, and you know, they're lovely, but they I think they're frightened of you, you know, not getting anywhere and, and being poor or, which I was!

Paul
They were absolutely right!

Amanda
They were spot on!

Paul
But it's interesting, isn't it as well, I suppose...I remember very similarly, kind of telling my parents, that's what I wanted to try and do. And of course, they were only trying to look out for me. I think the approach was, "why don't you go to..." a bit like you, they wanted me to be an English teacher, because I was quite good at English at school. They said, "why don't you do English at university and then you could act in your spare time?" And being a rather angry young man, I said, "I don't want to act in my spare time!" And then they said, "but if you got a degree, you'd have something to fall back on". And I thought, if I have something to fall back on, I'm going to fall back on it! So I don't know, it sounds a bit similar, your experience.

Amanda
Yeah, it's really similar. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I finished and it was just all kind of cash in hand jobs doing pub theatre. They were right. And they were looking at me and my dad sort of said, you know, what are you doing? You know, and it went on, it went on for about 10 years, this.

Paul
It's true. I want to jump back a second if I may, Mandy, before we get to the poverty years down and out in London. I want to drop back to Bretton Hall because Hayley and I you may know we went to Middlesex Poly together and I feel that I was talking to a friend of ours Giles King about this the other day, and he was at Dartington. And I think those three places had a shared kind of ethos almost I felt. Bretton Hall Middlesex and, and what was it like when you turned up there? I mean, you know, what was your first impression?

Amanda
Well I saw a man in dungarees, which thrilled me. Very shallow! Yeah, I just, I was just, because Dartington is very close to new to Newton Abbot, and I wanted to go somewhere like that. And it was, it was the place where...Newton Abbot is...how can I say without being offensive to people living in Newton Abbot? It's got a lot of them isms to it, you know, it's, it's, it's, um, I'd say there's quite a lot more of a right wing stance to the, to the town and, and then Totnes is completely the opposite where you walk around in bare feet up and down the road. And I was drawn to that side. So I wanted to go somewhere like, almost like a runaway place, out of what was quite confined in Newton Abbot. And then...but I didn't want to be so close to the family you know, I needed to get away. And so I found a Dartington in the north. And it was just wonderful because it's in the middle of a Henry Moore Sculpture Park. It's just beautiful, which Dartington is. And it was just a great release actually, I just really comfortable.

Paul
Again, I didn't realise and obviously we've talked a lot over the years but in some ways quite similar because, again, I wanted to get away from home and and then I, when I ended up there and I encountered particularly John Wright's work and met Hayley, it opened up a thing that I didn't really know existed. And also if I think about where you went and a bit like Middlesex, we had Phelim McDermott and people like that above us. And obviously your time there are people like League of Gentlemen and people making their own work. I mean, what was it like to improvise and do all of that?

Amanda
Oh it was just great, I felt...it's like, if you have the right environment, you can feel it again, if you really create the right environment in the space, which I think Told by an Idiot certainly do. Do you know what I mean, but if, when you get into environment, you can just play and play and play with just a great feeling of freedom. And, and also, I think this, of being seen or suddenly being able to communicate in a deeper, bigger way. And a meeting, I know this sounds really, but meeting people from the north of England, like I didn't know anyone. And suddenly there was Rotherham, people from Rotherham, Doncaster, Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Solihull, all these amazing people that are north of Newton Abbot.

Paul
That's a good title for your autobiography, "North of Newton Abbot: a life in the theatre" by Mandy Lawrence. It is about obviously, it's as much about the people you meet, isn't it? And as well as the teachers and whatever. So when you, that was a two year course, yeah?

Amanda
Three.

Paul
Three year course. And did you meet a group of people that you made work with there? Was there a group of you or...

Amanda
I did. A company called Fecund Theatre that... I sort of convinced myself that I couldn't get once I got out, I didn't even know I needed a CV, when I left Bretton Hall, I didn't know I needed a photo and a CV, it was very, I wasn't taught that or told that. So I ended up joining a theatre company formed in Bretton Hall, they were a year above us. And some of us joined them. And I sort of got myself stuck there and I did Edinburgh for nine years with them pretty much and it was stuff like lots of plays holding spliffs and pretended to be really cool. And it wasn't my scene at all, I was a fish out of water, but we did versions of Hamlet and Ubu, Alfred Jarry Ubu and some interesting stuff and a lot of devised work. So that came out of Bretton Hall, but I had to pull myself away from that.

Paul
And would you...did you in any way regret that length of time that you did? Yes. I can see.

Amanda
Yeah, I think I did. I think I just felt I just believed that I, nobody would employ me or I didn't have...It was self belief. You know, like suddenly I was out in the real world and it suddenly seemed to be about looks or I don't know, I think that's me convincing myself like, at that time in my life. I was like, you have to be really attractive to to you know, move forward, you have to be and then I later on just went well, the work I love like Ken Loach, Mike Leigh, all the stuff that really rocked my world when I was younger, isn't about that at all.

Paul
No.

Amanda
And I knew it sounds really obvious.

Paul
No, it...

Amanda
It took me a moment to go, hold on, this is not what you even believe in, you know what I mean, like you're showing, like, you want to show life, you know, and I just suddenly I got more sort of confidence. It took a long time to come.

Paul
It's interesting, isn't it that, and obviously that touches on what you and I would call the poverty years as well, at the same time. What would you say was the worst non theatre job you can recall having?

Amanda
Oh god, I've been in many a kitchen but there was one kitchen. I was always the washer up, they'd never put me out to carry any plates of food, but there was one where I'd finish in Ladbroke Grove at one in the morning, and I'd have to get night buses back to Stoke Newington, which then wasn't what it is now.

Paul
And in those moments, when you're on that night bus, two night buses, and you've been shouted out by the Italian chef or whatever, and show business of any kind of level feels a million miles away. What kept you going?

Amanda
I think, I've thought about this a lot and I've talked to my partner about this because he's had a similar thing in a way but I think you just endure, you just carry on. Because I was doing bits of theatre around it, and it was just a massive commitment to it. It just felt, this is what I want to do. And this is kind of, Paul, all I can do. You know, this is the only thing that makes sense and works for me. I'm rubbish at, I can't do anything. Oh that's my cuckoo clock. I'm sorry.

Paul
No it's our cuckoo clock.

Amanda
Oh is it yours?

Paul
Have you got one as well?

Amanda
Yeah!

Paul
How bizarre we both have a cuckoo clock.

Amanda
Mine will go off in a minute.

Paul
Mine also, I should say, ours, which is really like a kind of Charlie Chaplin one, but it is always one cuckoo out. Is yours the same problem?

Amanda
Ours is three cuckoos out.

Paul
That's a better title "Three Cuckoos Out" is a better title! But no, you're right. And I think what you said then really struck a nerve, when you said it's kind of all I can do. And I remember talking to a mutual friend of ours Toby once where he was saying similar things that you get through your 20s and it's a real struggle. And then you get into your 30s and people start to drop out or they meet somebody or they want some sort of security, they're fed up of being poor. And if you manage to survive that, like you and I did, you get into your 40s and you're not going to do anything else. I couldn't do anything else. I can't even help my son with his maths homework, never mind, you know. So you're kind of stuck in a way, but it's a good stuck, I suppose.

Amanda
It is a good stuck. I mean, I remember, this is linking it back to your... But I, I got to the point where I was doing three cash in hand jobs and and doing the little bits of theatre or doing this theatre company Fecund theatre. And you know, it was just...in a van, I remember sleeping, going from Portsmouth to Paisley in one night, in the van and wake...we had no b&b. And I woke up rubbing my face on the floor of the van to keep warm. And I remember I said, in the 10th year, if I don't get an agent and I don't get a job, I don't get a real turning point, I have to smell the coffee. And then that's when I got an in an interview at Royal Court with you. But that was the turning point.

Paul
Well, it's interesting, you know that if I think back to the first time I kind of, I think met you, we might have had mutual friends like Joey and stuff. So I might have encountered you I think, but the first proper meeting with you coming into meet us for the show. And it's interesting, obviously, you were perfect for us in many ways. And you were wonderful, absolutely brilliant in the show itself. But it's an interesting thing, because you are many things but obviously you're one of the funniest performers I've ever worked with or seen. And I don't think that, I can't imagine that fits in with a lot of the Fecund stuff, that sounds more intense kind of experience. Whereas it felt like maybe, did it feel like something was being released comedically, maybe, or the ability to be that side of yourself?

Amanda
Yes. I mean, there was funny stuff in Fecund, and we did some lovely characterisations, but just a real proper release and a joy and, and feeling very comfortable. It just sort of came, it just felt more, it came together, you know, and it fitted, the glove fitted the hand. Yes.

Paul
Yes, I know what you mean. And sometimes it's interesting that when we give ourselves a point where we go, something's got to happen here. And then...

Amanda
Yeah, I was just thinking, and also it was just real release, I was with a theatre company with the same sort of people for a long time, for years. And it was just really lovely to be in a whole new set of humour, you know what I mean, to be in a room of, and it was it was a healthy, really healthy room. And I don't know, it just a release of new people.

Paul
It's true. We do...one of the thing that we're fortunate about as actors is that sense that we meet new people all the time, don't we? So if it's good, you make pals or whatever. And if it's bad, it's very brief and then you move on to the next thing. Which brings me to my next regret. Can you think of any, and I really don't mind if this...this might be a Told by an Idiot experience! Is there any experience of when you've taken a job and realise that you wished you hadn't? You don't have to name names. I'm just curious as to whether you've had that, because I've had that experience where I've said yes, and then I thought I shouldn't have done this. And then they'll have to do it, you know?

Amanda
Yeah, well yeah, I've never left a job. I know some actors who have, and I've been in some...yeah, there were a couple, in the latter years of, I have to say, in the theatre company I was with, that I thought, I shouldn't be here any more. And there was quite avant garde stuff where, risqué costumes and so on, and I felt such a fish out of water! Like, "this literally doesn't fit" I felt very uncomfortable, do you know what I mean, it just wasn't me. And there are some shows I've been in, where there are more people on stage than there are in the audience. Those classic moments. There was one play I did up in Newcastle, I don't know how far I should go with this, but, I did the Northern Stage ensemble for a while and we did about five plays, I know you did the same...

Paul
Yes I did.

Amanda
...for a little bit. But there was one play with a particular director and I was just so badly cast. And I had to do a Northumberland accent, which is a very tricky accent.

Paul
Yeah, very hard.

Amanda
And I was sinking every night, it was just...in front of a Northumberland Newcastle audience.

Paul
I'll move on there, but obviously, we had a lovely time with you then, and then, going on to do an adaptation of a Philip Pullman, the Firework Maker's Daughter, which you joined us for in a big company. Very, very happy experience in that show. But I do remember it led to something else for you and me, which I'm very proud of. I remember sitting in the technical rehearsal rehearsal one night, 10 o'clock, at the Sheffield Crucible and you were on stage being a pirate, and I was sitting with Ian Johnstone our composer and he leant across to me and said, "who does Mandy remind you of, running across in this pirate costume?" And I said, "I'm not sure" and he went, "Charles Hawtrey" . And I went, "Oh my god, she does! Physically, the way you were playing that role. I'm sure it hadn't even crossed your head, I'm not suggesting you're channelling Charles Hawtrey as part of this pirate! But your physicality and the kind of naivety of the charm of it. And then I think I remember coming to you and saying look I've just read this book and I think there might be a show in this, if you're interested in having a look and hence became Jiggery Pokery, a show that had a brief life but I have to say, for me, one show I'm really really proud of. Oh I was very proud of that. Very magical time.

Paul
Yeah and the wonderful collaborators we built around it as well, Cathy Wren, who was the wonderful composer?

Amanda
Jules Maxwell

Paul
Jules, yes, a wonderful team of people that came and did it with us, and I just remember your...which is I suppose what, obviously wonderful acting is, but you were both incredibly funny to be fun and kind of heart-breaking. And I felt for me, I remember, it felt a bit of a turning point when we were making it where I think I said, let's imagine, imagine that this is a play that has a cast of like 30 in it. And if it was at the National Theatre, some poor actor would be playing the stage door keeper. But now you're going to do it all. And I think suddenly when you grew into that thing of playing all these different characters. I still remember talking to your other half about a moment where you were listening as a child outside the door of the principal's office then you'd go back in and be...oh it was wonderful. It was wonderful.

Amanda
It was a complete joy. Like you say, it had a very brief life but it had a very special brief life. It was a real...and I learnt so much doing that. Because doing something on your own, it's quite, you go through a wall a bit. But it was a real joy to do, a real joy, yeah. And another turning point, I think, within a journey, as an actor, it was a very important thing that I did.

Paul
Because there is something, isn't there, about, I've only done one once many years ago, the sense of stepping out on your own on stage for an hour or an hour or an hour and 20 minutes, takes a big leap of faith to do that. I remember when I did mine years ago in Edinburgh, I remember coming out, and on a bad night, I used to think in my head, when I looked at the audience, they're thinking, "oh god is it just in him for another hour? No one else is coming on.

Amanda
I know, and I remember stepping out and I'd hold a cardboard door and a pipe, just before I'd step out! And think...you'd suddenly just have moments during it, where you'd see the audience go..."do I need to do more? Do I need to change it? There were sort of a lot of very present moments that happened within it, each night, of seeing them

Paul
It was a proper tour de force. Brilliant team and you were amazing in it. And then, obviously you have built up a fantastic body of acting work, you know, the things you've done. And you mentioned two directors, who obviously clearly inspired you, Ken Loach and Mike Leigh. Have you ever managed to meet any of them for work or anything like that? Or even socially.

Amanda
I had a meeting with Mike Leigh for 'Turner'. And we had a really lovely time chatting, and then he said, come back, we'll do a little audition, a little improvisation. I came back, I did this audition and after that audition it went really well, he said you're definitely going to be in the...it was a really positive thing. And then I found out I was two and a half weeks pregnant. And then I wrote to him and I said, Mike, I don't know if you're thinking of me being in something but I've just found out I'm pregnant and by the time the filming happens, the baby will be two months old. And he wrote back and said, I was thinking of you doing something quite substantial but never mind, maybe we can get you in for a day, so I went in for a day on Turner.

Paul
How was that? It must have been such a strange conflicted kind of thing.

Amanda
It was, but the baby thing was so big for me. But it was a strange moment, that they both came together at the same time, but that's life.

Paul
It's true, you literally don't know. It's funny, I remember, I've met neither of them for work, but I remember meeting Ken Loach, another as you say amazing director. I directed a play at the Young Vic by Brecht called Señora Carrar's Rifles a few years ago...

Amanda
I saw it.

Paul
And he came to see it, and I was in the bar and I got introduced to him. And I was like, oh my god it's Ken Loach, because of course he made that wonderful film about the civil war didn't he, Land and Freedom. And I think I was a bit tongue-tied and I was very conscious that I probably sounded a bit daft, but I was very pleased to meet him, you know, people like that. But you have also of course spanned the eople on the spectrum of movies from the art house of Mike Leigh to one of the biggest franchises in the world. So, how does that feel? You must have a doll - presumably there is a doll of you, in terms of the Star Wars

Amanda
Of Star Wars? No, no doll. There's a Top Trumps card.

Paul
Top Trumps, that's even cooler.

Amanda
Yes. I look very tense on the Top Trumps card!

Paul
On your Top Trumps card, what is your highest score? For what thing do you score highest?

Amanda
I don't know! I just look at the colour schemes and the costumes, I haven't looked at the scoring.

Paul
But is...I mean that must have been, from the moment you were, presumably it was top secret from the moment your agent said there was a meeting.

Amanda
I mean it was so tense, it was...well what happened was, I was in Nell Gwynn at the Globe, and a director came to see that play, of Star Wars

Paul
Did he? Wow.

Amanda
Yeah he came, did the whole London experience, seeing a play at the Globe, and it was the press night of Nell Gwynn, and then I got a phone call saying do you want to do a few days on Star Wars. And then we had to sign all these things. And they said, do you want to say a few lines in it, I was like, yes alright, and then, kind of like a solicitor guy came into the trailer, and I had to sign something that said you're not allowed to tell anyone you're doing this, and then the lines they showed me, and it was quite a, like five lines, it takes me a while, and it was on a ipad and it disappears in 15 minutes, so they gave me the ipad and I was like (panting), and then it went (makes electronic noise) and disappeared.

Paul
Oh my god it's like Mission Impossible.

Amanda
It just exploded! Yeah and it made it so tense, Paul.

Paul
Yes, I can imagine. I've seen that film with my kids. Actually, you've got very good part in it. You know, as a friend you go, "wow". It grew into a really good part. What was he like as a director on it?

Amanda
Rian Johnson was absolutely beautiful. Really loves theatre, that's why he was there at the Globe, he's a writer, he's, he was really kind and gentlemanly. Then I did a play in New York about a year and a half later, Angels in America. And he flew out to see me in it with his partner. You know, very very lovely man.

Paul
That's nice to hear, isn't it, when you're in the midst of something so enormous, that someone can be quite human in all of that.

Amanda
Because it was very scary being in something so big, like 400 crew and everyone and then they say, "action!" and you're like, "oh god this is too much, I'm going to lie down and have a cup of tea!" It was good to experience, but I favour more intimate, you know, settings.

Paul
Yes. But good to have done. And I have to ask, has your son seen it?

Amanda
No, he's not interested! It's so funny, we took him on the set, and he was looking around going, "mmmmm". And they were like, "hey, Arthur, hi!" and he said, "it's a bit like Transformers". We showed him a little bit of the scene that I do, and he's like "Mummy, what are you doing?"

Paul
You mentioned the two film directors. In terms of performers, has there been anyone who's influenced you as a performer, that you think, there's something about them? Or not?

Amanda
In the journey that I've done, you sort of capture the odd actor here and then and go, "god they are, they are just superb". And Hayley (Carmichael) is definitely one of them. I would watch her, I would come backstage at the end of Playing the Victim and every night I'd listen to her doing the last scene, and every time she did it differently. And that is something I strive for and I can't....she just listened differently, was really truthful and I just...

Paul
You both have that ability to be completely present and completely in the moment, which I suppose in a sense brings us full circle back to "where do I come from? "From Devon". Mandy, it's been a real joy to chat to you and I hope we can see each other before too long. We will come and hang out. Mandy, thank you so much. Look after yourself. All the best.

Amanda
Thank you.