PAUL: Hello and welcome to this special

Christmas edition of "Regrets,
I've Had A Few".

This month I'm joined by two very special

guests. A director, writer,
teacher who has been at the forefront

of the landscape of British
theatre over the last 35 years.

His book,
"Why is That So Funny?",

has become required reading for anybody
who's interested in making theatre or

performing, or indeed finding
out why something is funny.

And it would be fair to say he quite

literally shaped the way
I look at theatre.

I'm also joined by an actor who is a truly
unique performer and theatre maker,

brilliantly unpredictable
and constantly surprising.

Over the last three decades,
she's worked with some of the leading

directors in world theatre and she remains
without a doubt the finest performer I've

had the privilege
of sharing the stage with.

JOHN: Who's that?
PAUL: That's her there.

And that's you there.

So welcome.
HAYLEY: Not some bloke.

You make us all "he".

PAUL: I said she.

Oh, I said actor.
That's an interesting thing.

HAYLEY: No, no.
I thought you said he.

PAUL: No, no, I said she. Anyway, we've started.

Welcome my two fellow co founders,
Hayley Carmichael and John Wright.

HAYLEY: I was about to say that was the bit that I
thought you might say, how funny,

I don't know, family, and then
we went our separate ways.

PAUL: I always say the guest's name
after I've said a bit about.

HAYLEY: I've not listened to your
podcast. I am sorry.

PAUL: Well, this is going to be new.
That's good.

Have you listened, John?
JOHN: No.

PAUL: Perfect.

Well, you're perfect guests because
we're doing an experiment this month

in that normally I ask a guest a range
of questions from their early experience

in theatre and whatever it is going,
but because obviously we know each other

rather well, we thought that would
be a little bit boring.

So we've invited some listeners
and friends of the company,

people who've seen our shows over the last
30 years, to submit some questions.

So all of this episode's questions
come from members of the public.

So there is a hat of mine sat there and I
thought we could pick a question out,

we could read it out,
and then as a threesome,

we could either give our views, refuse
to comment or put it back in the hat.

HAYLEY: There's no point on a podcast, is it?

PAUL: Well, we're being filmed.

HAYLEY: Are we now?

PAUL: And they say there's no audience.

So anyway.

HAYLEY: Is this like a play or
do we speak the truth?

PAUL: Oh, you speak the truth.
Well, you don't have to.

You can speak what you like.

And as it's titled "Regrets,
I've Had A Few".

There might be opportunities to express

any regrets or not express any
regrets in relation to the questions.

I'm going to get started.
JOHN: Good.

PAUL: Without further ado,

what have been your top three most
Idiotic moments when making a show?

I suppose that could mean anything,
couldn't it not be in the show?

Does it? It says when making a show.

So it could be around the show.

HAYLEY: The only thing I can think of that comes

to mind and I don't really know or think
about Idiotic, is that because it's us?

Okay.

As a term, I do remember
you and me running around the stage.

I think we might have even had some
custard pies and stuff.

We went absolutely loopy and crazy running
around the stage of "Deka D" because we

did everything before we
made it the most still play.

And I remember then we did
nothing in the actual production.

We just stood and talked to each other.

But I remember, I think we felt we had

to do everything
before we made that decision.

PAUL: Did we have custard pies?

HAYLEY: In my memory we did.

JOHN: I don't remember custurd pies. I remember running around.

HAYLEY: Because there might have been food.

There might have been food because
there was a birthday cake.

So maybe it was that.

But I remember we just went
free form sort of, for a while.

PAUL: Yes, I do.

HAYLEY: And then we wrestled it
into something that's very still.

JOHN: Yeah, because you're so playful.

It was that the nicest thing was
just to get you going, really.

But there was one time I remember we
would, and it was,

"Don't laugh, it's my life", where Hayley

was tied up in front of an audience.

And you just ran off
and the others chased you.

HAYLEY: "I'm So Big".
JOHN: That was the one.

HAYLEY: Yes, I was meant to be on the chain.

It fell off my ankle.

PAUL: We had to wrestle you to the ground.

JOHN: Everything changed and I remember thinking,

I thought it was really exciting time,
but it was terrifying.

PAUL: Yes, I remember that.

JOHN: I thought, oh, no,
the whole illusion is gone.

But then I thought, it doesn't matter.

PAUL: They got you back on.
HAYLEY: You got me back on.

I think what happened in my memory is

that it wasn't really a love story,
that play, but I think that night,

because I had to, in the end,
I think, choose to stay.

I think that's what happened in the end.

JOHN: I thought they brought you back.

HAYLEY: No, I don't know, because what happened

was, I think it happened
once accidentally.

And that was really exciting.

PAUL: The one that John's mentioning.

HAYLEY: Yeah, the one that John's mentioning.

And then another night it came off and of
course Javi and I looked at each other.

So maybe that's what I'm remembering.

And both of us were a bit like,
oh, here we go again.

This isn't exciting.
A second time.

What are we going to do?

I think I chose
to put myself back on the chain

that night, which meant
I was choosing to stay.

JOHN: It was a very dark scenario, wasn't it?

PAUL: But I also remember in that same thing

about Idiotic moments,
I also remember the beginning of that,

of "I'm So Big",
which was inspired by a wonderful film by

Emir Kusturica called
"Time of the Gypsies".

JOHN: I remember that, yeah,

the two gypsies in a sort of thing
that was hoisted up in the air.

PAUL: But I remember in our show and another
moment where I suppose something happened

which resulted in something different is
when at the top of the story where

me and Javi, the two brothers,
are with our grandmother, played by you.

And Fredo's already with the grandmother.

And then you find me.

HAYLEY: We're trying to busk aren't we?

PAUL: And then the journey of the show is

that we then make a journey
from the countryside to the city.

And I remember Hayley having to pull all
the stuff off to reveal this caravan.

But on one occasion,
the stuff that covered the caravan fell

away while we were in the first scene,
we revealed where we were.

JOHN: I remember that.
PAUL: And in that moment,

because ultimately to take us to the city,
it's triggered by me accidentally shooting

Hayley as the grandmother and killing
her and her ghost reveals the thing.

But one night the cloth came off.

I didn't know what to do and I just shot,
I just shot Grandma.

And I remember your face going, what?

And I think I shot you again.

I think I shot you a second time
because we have to go.

And then Hayley kind
of died and struck the set.

But I thought, it makes no sense.

We have to go to the city and Grandma has

to die. In that second.
I think they're some Idiotic moments.

HAYLEY: That's true.
I had forgotten that you just shot me as

opposed to the sort of tussle
that became an accident.

PAUL: Normally that became the accident.

Why don't you pick one out, Hayley?

I'm going to put the used ones there.

I should also, if anyone was interested,

"Don't Laugh It's My Life", that John
mentioned, was inspired by a show we did,

inspired by Moliere's Tartuffe
we might return to.

HAYLEY: Thinking about something John said
just earlier before we started.

What do you want to be when you grow up?

PAUL: That's a very good question.

John?

What do you want to be when you grow up?

JOHN: Oh, I'm still making my mind up.

PAUL: That's a good question.

JOHN: Yeah.

HAYLEY: I don't know if we can slightly interpret

it as in grow up and live forever,
because I don't know if I've got long

enough to grow up and do what
I'd like to do in this time.

PAUL: What do you want to do?

HAYLEY: Well, I was thinking about all the things

I'd like to train as,
and one will be a lawyer.

And I mean, right now,

I think doctor would be useful,
but I don't know if there's time.

But it's all the money actually, more so.

But I was going to say grow up, I think
if I grew up, I might play basketball.

PAUL: I remember what it makes me think of.

It's a good question,
but I remember it makes me think of when

you grow up, and maybe this is
a slightly negative connotation.

I remember in our third show,

"You Haven't Embraced Me Yet", and Hayley
and I played brother and sister in it.

I remember it makes me think
of a particularly negative review

in which they described me and Hayley,
and they said, "Ms.

Carmichael and Mr.

Hunter run around the stage
like two spoiled children".

Maybe I don't know,
maybe they're harking back.

I don't know what I want
to do when I grow up.

HAYLEY: Actually, just on that, though, Paul, I'm
now thinking maybe it wasn't negative.

I mean, I think they were
a bit screwed up, though.

PAUL: Oh, that's true.
HAYLEY: So maybe we were a bit like that.

PAUL: The characters were like that.
Maybe they weren't being negative about.

JOHN: Which are they talking about?

PAUL: "You Haven't Embraced Me Yet".

So maybe it wasn't negative.

I'm going to pick another one out.

I'm intrigued about you
being a doctor and a lawyer.

JOHN: Yeah.
HAYLEY: Prime Minister.

I'm not, never going to be.
PAUL: Oh this is good.

Just starts with a quote
from the Pet Shop Boys, which is,

"we were never being boring because
we were never being bored".

JOHN: That's interesting.
PAUL: That's an interesting quote.

Have you ever been
boring on stage and why.

HAYLEY: That's in anything?

JOHN: Yes, because that's
the big thing, isn't it?

The only rule is don't be boring.

Have you ever been boring?

Well, I mean, how do you know?

Because it's going to be
different to lots of people.

You'll know if everyone is.

There's an atmosphere
of sullen discontent.

You will pick it up very quickly.

But some people might not buy into what's
happening for all sorts of reasons,

but it's the general fear, isn't it,
in the audience that keeps it buoyant?

HAYLEY: Has anyone ever said it to you, though?

Because, I mean, people do sometimes say,
that was really boring.

PAUL: Has anyone said it to you?

HAYLEY: I've been told I was boring in a Beckett

play, that was lots of repetition, but I
hadn't really found a way of playing it.

PAUL: Was this someone who didn't really
like the play as well, do you think?

HAYLEY: No, I don't think so.

Someone who had seen it before.

JOHN: I've said it lots of times.

PAUL: To people?

JOHN: Yeah. I've say, that's really boring.

HAYLEY: I think you probably said it to us.

JOHN: Yeah, I'm sure, if it's not working.

And also if I don't know what's going

to make it work, I can just say,
look, it's boring.

PAUL: I think it's a very valid thing to say

when you're making something,
and I often think it's something that.

I've been in loads of rooms where no one

would even consider whether
they were boring or not.

And they are boring, but they
don't consider whether they are.

They just carry on what they do.

JOHN: Yeah, they're so self
important or something.

PAUL: This must be interesting, because I.
JOHN: Because I'm doing.

PAUL: Because I'm doing it and I
came up with the idea.

JOHN: But particularly when you are playing

a game, if it gets repetitive,
it can get boring very quickly.

Or if you think, oh, it's the same
old conflict again, that gets boring.

HAYLEY: Yeah.

I think
it's probably a bit like what we've said

about knowing whether people are
enjoying it or not, isn't it?

If it's meant to be funny, you know.

And if it's meant to be serious,

you could pretend or just say, "oh,
it was great", but you don't really know.

So maybe the boring thing is the same.

I'm sure I have bored people.
PAUL: I'm sure I have.

But I think that's interesting when you

say about the difference between being in
something dramatic and something funny.

I think it was Michael Redgrave.
The actor said,

"you can be the talk of the town in
tragedy, but comedy will find you out".

He was talking about Alec Guinness and why
he adored Alec Guinness as an actor.

And Guinness was obviously
brilliantly comic.

And Redgrave said,
that's what was so amazing.

He was so.
And actually Guinness at one point said,

I wonder whether I should
have been a clown.

He actually talked about
that and he was such a brilliant.

Anyway, pick another one, Hayley.

Will we go down a rabbit hole?

HAYLEY: Oh, I can see my name.

What's the story behind Hayley wearing

a saucepan on her head
on the cover of John's book?

JOHN: I have no idea.

I was just given the picture.

HAYLEY: Isn't there something about, if you know
something, then you're responsible?

What's that sentence?

There's something like that.

So I was going to say.

You just said someone gave it you,
John, but I know where it came from.

Obviously we know where it came.

Oh, hang on, what's the story behind

Hayley wearing a saucepan on her
head on the cover of John's book?

I guess.
Where does it come from?

PAUL: Where does the origin
of that image come from?

JOHN: Yeah, was that from a moment in,
I can't remember.

Did it come from, "Why Is That So Funny"?

Was it there?
HAYLEY: That's your book.

JOHN: I know.
It's on the cover of my book.

I did notice.

HAYLEY: I think that comes from something.

From what?

"Why Is That So Funny"?

JOHN: "Why is That So Funny"?

I've got a memory of you being in a, but

when it might have been. Was it your
sister that took the photograph?

HAYLEY: No.

Oh, dear again,
it was "On The Verge of Exploding" and I

know we had loads of stuff and I think it
might have been Laura originally

who brought us loads of bits
and bobs to play with.

Bath time.

Yeah, it was an image from the show and it
was bath time, and so I was miming that.

I was putting water on my head and then
playing around with the pan,

but now I want to say, Andy, was it Andy,
somebody who took photographs.

PAUL: Very, very early on?
HAYLEY: Early on?

I mean, it must say
in your cover who took it?

But I can't remember. But it is from that show.

But I think it was bath
time and there was a pan.

JOHN: And there was a a pan in the thing and.

PAUL: It was our first show and I think when we
had our first photos done after Edinburgh,

like Hayley said,
it became an image that we kind of really

liked and it became an image that stayed
with us that we still use, I think.

HAYLEY: I suppose it is kind of odd but funny.

But I don't know why?

Maybe it was that element of.

JOHN: Big thing when we were doing "On
the Verge of Exploding" was playfulness.

That was the thing that I found
so inspiring that you were doing.

And I was obsessed with clown at the time

because it was very much
Gaulier when starting at school.

I was doing as many Gaulier
stuff all through the 80s.

I was doing Gaulier stuff.

And when we did "On the Verge",
you just galloped about.

The playfulness was unbridled.

It was lovely.

And that was really inspiring.

I think it was really
liberating in many ways.

I don't remember us actually
discussing very much,

like, the lovely moments, like the love
scene you played with the banana.

That just happened because you
got on stage with a banana.

I don't remember.

We repeated it,

but I don't remember talking about it,
except, oh, that's lovely.

PAUL: But I also think it was maybe also
about, we had that starting point of

that mini story in "100 Years
of Solitude", two pages or whatever.

So that gave us a little narrative
that we had the start from.

And then I think it was a bit like
making, provoked by you, obviously,

but making performers,
making choices, I think.

Going, well,
it would maybe great when the brides

rejected that. To make it worse,
these rotting bananas are given.

But I think that notion of making choices

as performers, I think
remains really interesting.

Emma Rice, Hayley, came to see
the show at the RSC the other night.

And for some reason,
we ended up talking about Cymbeline

that you were in and being in the Swan,
because that's where I am at the moment.

And she told the story, which I knew,
but to these other actors.

Lucy McCormick was there.

And Emma was telling the story about when

you played Imogen, and you're asleep,
and Iachimo is searching your body.

And Emma said, in the midst of being

asleep, Hayley stood up, went for a wee,
came back and went back to sleep again.

And Emma said it was nothing
to do with me at all.

Said it was just a choice Hayley
made when we worked the scene.

And I just thought, that's inspired.

And of course, it stayed in,
and somebody had remembered this moment.

And similarly, when we did

an Idiot show many years later,

we did a version of Ostrovsky's "Too
Clever by Half" at the Royal Exchange.

And I can't remember the name of your character

HAYLEY: That was ten years ago.
Cleopatra.

PAUL: Cleopatra, that's right.

The woman, middle aged woman who falls
in love and is seduced by this young man.

And I remember vividly there's a scene
in the second half where Cleopatra comes

to the young man's apartment
and we were about to do the scene

and in the rehearsal room and Hayley said
to me, oh, I'd like to try something.

I said, yeah, try something.

And she came in and in the room,
she doesn't know there's an elderly

gentleman who's in the play played
by Nick Haverson who's there.

HAYLEY: He shouldn't be there.
PAUL: He shouldn't be there.

Hayley comes in, I mean, said to me,
I'd like to try something.

Came in and she's very smartly dressed,
elegant, middle aged woman married to.

HAYLEY: I still got that frock, it's very sweaty.

PAUL: She came on in the rehearsal room,

looked around, called the name,
he wasn't there and then proceeded to take

her knickers off and put
them in her handbag.

HAYLEY: Very discreetly, like I was the queen.
They didn't see.

PAUL: I know, very discreet.

But it was such a brilliant provocation.

And what it did, amazingly,
as a choice initially, we really laughed.

We really laughed in this scene when

Duvan, as the young man,
came in because he hadn't seen that.

I think Nick glimpsed it as the old man.

HAYLEY: He does because he ends up
hitting his head on the table.

I remember thinking I was alone

and preparing for meeting the young man,
taking my knickers off.

And then Nick, as the old man, witnesses.

I go, "Ah!" And if I got it right,
always my knickers would get caught

on the end of my shoe and fly over
my head and Nick would find them.

It was a beautiful cocktail dress.

PAUL: Oh, it was this one is about an actor's
choice, though, because the juxtaposition

between how you looked and what
you did was brilliant.

But then the other thing was, but as the scene progressed and the young man who didn't know that you'd done

that said, "come and sit on the rug,
we'll talk." And of course,

as an audience, we know she
hasn't got any knickers on.

And Hayley was trying to sit
down and we're still laughing.

But what you did brilliantly,
as we still laugh was it moved

from laughter to real pain you
really felt for this woman.

It was so beautifully played.

But all of that.

You presumably didn't plan
to take your knickers off.

HAYLEY: But I remember thinking

she thinks something might happen here
so she's sort of getting prepared.

PAUL: Brilliant.

HAYLEY: And of course, he in the story
thinks she's disgusting.

PAUL: But I still think that's the thing.

I still think it's great when actors are

given the freedom or are encouraged,
not saying it always works because it

doesn't, but are encouraged in the room
to try things and come up with something.

JOHN: And having the freedom to.
PAUL: Exactly.

I'm going to pick something out of this.

HAYLEY: I've got to say, I love working with Nick

because I think we could make a show
out of all the sort of little bits.

When we played ugly sisters in Aladdin,
it was so much fun.

PAUL: Not Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast.

HAYLEY: Which one had the Flying carpet?

That must have been Aladdin.

That carpet was just nightmare.

No, I did say to Nick after Beauty
and the Beast that we should make a show

with just those two sisters because I
thought that was, I enjoyed it so much.

PAUL: I'd love to see that.

I think the two of you
together are brilliant.

I'm opening another question.

What is the worst recorded incident

of corpsing in the history
of Told by an Idiot shows?

I think I can choose one.

And I think we were both really annoyed.

You and me, Hayley.

We did a show called "Shoot Me
in the Heart" at the Gate Theatre.

And Hayley and I co directed.

It was the first time we'd stepped
out of the acting company.

It's quite a big company,
seven or eight performers.

And Hayley and I on the outside,

co directing a beautiful story based
on this Argentinian film called "De Eso No Se Habla"

about a very charismatic middle aged man

in a small town on the coast
in Argentina in the thirties.

He falls in love with a dwarf,
a young girl.

It's a really beautiful fairy tale.

But I have a memory of us being

at the Gate or somewhere where
the whole company corpsed.

I can't remember exactly what happened,
but they were quite a few of them.

Martin, Annie, quite a lot of them.

Something happened which
clearly set them all off.

And I think they kind of was quite
surprised when they came down to the pub

to meet a pair of really stony faced,
slightly cross.

Because I think they were so
caught up with the corpse of it.

Maybe they thought we were going to join
in and we did exactly the opposite.

HAYLEY: I think you're right.

Although I think they
might have been mixed.

I think some of them felt awful about it.

PAUL: And also, I'm not being righteous.

I've had terrible moments of corpsing.

And the worst thing is you're
trying to stop, but you can't stop.

That's the terrible thing about it.
JOHN: What's the worst one you can (remember)?

PAUL: Oh, God.

It's probably with you,
Hayley, I imagine.

HAYLEY: Mostly I don't think of corpsing in Idiot

shows because I think I always feel
like whatever happens is allowed.

So you just laugh if
something makes you laugh.

You haven't different types of shows.

But I do remember,

though, we managed to carry on,
but you might not remember this.

In Aladdin on the rake stage
of the Lyric Hammersmith.

You're all on stage quite near the end,

and I come running on as
Aladdin with the bride's veil.

And as I run on, it goes under my front

feet and I slide down
the rake on the veil, like.

Just like that.

And then I meant that you're
looking at me, what's she doing?

but I presume you thought
I was trying something.

And then I got it out

there but then I stand on it again and
slide again.

But you're all facing upstage and I'm
the only one facing the audience.

I couldn't even work
out what was happening.

PAUL: One I wished I'd been
there for, corpsing wise.

We did a show called "And The Horse You
Rode In On", a sort of dark political

folly,
and it had five convoluted, not

convoluted, but five storylines
that interconnected.

So it was quite,

really complicated for the actors to learn
it, just the story of it, the drama of it.

And the brilliant Jane Guernier was in it,
who we all remember and know.

And she was fantastic as ever,
played loads of different parts.

But there's a part in which we return
to a scene,

a quite formal scene at a restaurant,
and Nick Haverson is the waiter.

Jane comes on,

but she comes on from a completely
different storyline,

in which she has a big leg of lamb
and pretends to play the leg of Lamb,

like a ukulele, and sing,
"I'm a leaning on the lamper".

And so convinced was she that she was
in the right scene, she just kept going.

And Nick Haverson had to, very politely,
as the waiter,

take her by the arm and walk her off
and Annie and the people in the scene said,

I literally couldn't look,
because she didn't give up.

She kept going, I'm absolutely
in the right scene, singing.

And Nick had to fight to lead her outside.

Anyway, pick one Hayley.

HAYLEY: I picked three in a row.
Oh, no.

Did you pick that last?
PAUL: Yeah, I did.

HAYLEY: You did.
PAUL: Sorry.

HAYLEY: This is a bit sideways,

because you mentioned Emma,
and this is not corpsing,

but I do remember in
Leeds, maybe Newcastle,

where they'd had a great big
refurbishment, so you could go off stage

upstage through these big metal doors,
and there was a toilet,

and in the middle of "Cymbeline",
I remember going, "I've got to go".

And Kirsty saying, "there's one out
the back, there's one out the back".

And I went out the back, but you needed
a code or a thing to get back in.

And I just went, oh, my God.

And I was banging on the door because I

knew it was me and it was
only me in the next scene.

PAUL: On your own.
HAYLEY: I was on my own and I was banging

on the door, banging it, because I
remember thinking, oh, I've just got to.

I didn't have a watch.

I remember thinking, I've just
got time to go to the toilet.

Then I just got locked out.

And eventually Kirsty heard me.

When they saw the stage was empty.

And so she let me in because she

remembered sending me
to the toilet that way.

She let me in and I just ran down

to the front of the stage and thought,
I've got to say something.

So I said, "I'm ever so sorry I got stuck

in the toilet", because that's
exactly what happened.

But it was Shakespeare
or Carl's version of it.

And of course they just all looked at me
like, that must be part of the play.

And the only laugh was Emma,
because she knew and she was at the back.

And I heard this one laugh.

PAUL: That's brilliant. I can imagine

some of those people who've got their
scripts of Cymbeline with them at the RSC.

HAYLEY: Oh, it was horrible, though,

behind the door. So, "I once read an article about Told

by an Idiot,
where the author described the style as

being like mask work,
but without any masks.

The actors were using
their faces as masks.

I thought this was an intriguing idea.

Is it true?

Do you perform mask work
but with your own faces?"

JOHN: Absolutely not.

Grotowski used to do that.

He used to get the actors to assume
a face and do it all the way through.

It was really weird when we first started,
because I'd done so long in Trestle,

people kept looking for mask
work in everything that we did.

Remember when we opened in Edinburgh
for that first run of our first play?

The first reviews we got were saying,
it's just like Trestle.

Exactly the same.
HAYLEY: Oh, I didn't know, really?

JOHN: I thought it was ridiculous.

They hadn't watched what we'd done.

PAUL: It's strange, wasn't it?

Because I think, obviously you were a
co founder of Trestle as well.

But just prior to us doing

our first show,
I'd spent six months in Trestle performing

their revival of "Hanging
Around", which was great.

And I learned an enormous amount from
playing in masks for that, at that time.

But it feels so different
to what we were doing.

It feels like, if anything, I think
of our early and actually lots of us.

I think it was always, for me,

more closer to comedia because
of the show we did at college with you.

JOHN: In fact, our first thing was comedia,

and that's where I saw the spark
between the two of you.

PAUL: And the energy of
it felt something that Hayley and I tuned

into, I think, when we
were younger, anyway.

JOHN: But it was amazing because you could do

it, never stop talking
and you barely said anything.

Just ran about.

HAYLEY: I think I spend my time trying -

I think that's why I went to the toilet
in that scene with Cymbeline,

because I just keep trying to go away
because I don't know what to do.

JOHN: But that is so funny.

Yeah, "sorry, I just went to the toilet".

PAUL: But also it's interesting, it's saying,
what is real in that moment.

You say that because, of course,

I'm reminded, I think,
of one of the best moments I've seen or

been pleasure of having,
sharing a stage in an idiot show was

in going back to "I'm So Big" with Javi,
when he was left alone.

And you talk about this very eloquently

in your book, but in the show where
suddenly he's a young boy,

he's reunited with his older brother,
and I've brought him to the city and I

leave him there and I say, right,
I'm going to go and get some food.

I'll be back.

And when we made that show, he made
it with all those gaps and spaces.

Suddenly Javi finds himself on the stage
at Hemel Hempstead or something.

When I've gone off,
he turns to the audience and literally

goes, "don't look at me,
I have nothing to do".

Which was such an honest statement,
but because of his skill as well.

JOHN: But he declared the game,
so he declared the game he was now playing

got nothing to do,
which was funny and we liked it.

But what was even funnier was when it

became real and he couldn't remember the
yoghurt because he told you the cue line.

PAUL: He said.
He said to me, "come on.

When I say the lemon one,
my favourite yoghurt is the lemon".

So I'm behind the caravan and I hear him

go, and they've been laughing,
it's amazing and really loving him.

And he goes, "do you like yoghurt?"
Okay, here we go.

"My favourite yoghurt is the mango one."

JOHN: No, nothing happened.

PAUL: And I'm behind the caravan.

I'm going, he didn't say that.

"Strawberry one."

And they're still laughing.

I don't want to go on.

And eventually Javi goes, "the lemon one".

And I come on and he gives me a big hug.

He says, "where have you been?

We were so bored here."

But also an extraordinary
performer in front of an audience.

Just amazing.

JOHN: And the first thing that you played
with him on the roof of the caravan.

PAUL: Oh, yeah, those two.

JOHN: The two of you on the roof of the caravan.

It was just a simple complicity game.

PAUL: And he gave you his coat
or jumper or something.

I remember it was nightime,

and at the end of the scene
he ended up giving you his.

Or something like that.
HAYLEY: Something like that.

I can remember having a sort of angry fit

sort of on top of the caravan
with the chain on my,

I thought about that the other day,
actually, because I thought, blimey,

I just threw myself around
the top of a metal caravan.

PAUL: Health and safety there.

JOHN: I was so worried because it was

it was quite a way off the ground.
HAYLEY: Yeah.

And we cut it,

if anybody wants to know this,
we cut a whole proper caravan into pieces

and put it back together
again in every venue.

Because I think it was a result
of the fact that we had to cancel one gig

because we couldn't get
it through the door.

We couldn't get it through the door.

JOHN: We were thinking of doing
it in the carpark.

PAUL: The car park, I think so. We
didn't in the end, I think.

But anyway, I'm gonna go to,

I don't know how, we've probably
got time for a few more.

"What's the worst idea suggestion you've
ever had as a company for a show?"

So I assume that means what we've come
up with or someone has suggested to us.

What's the worst idea we've ever had?
JOHN: I don't know.

PAUL: That's a good question.

HAYLEY: I think this might be one of mine.
And it didn't go anywhere.

And I don't remember when this was,

but I remember I had some idea about you
and me, Paul, being stuck down a mine.

PAUL: I know, I like that.

HAYLEY: I'm not going to expand, but I know we did
some not very funny things down there.

PAUL: We all saw brilliant Chinese film about
two guys down at a mineshaft.

I'm sure we did, yeah.

And one of them, well, they kill another
guy down there or something isn't it?

HAYLEY: I can't really (remember).
PAUL: I don't know.

There's been so many things over

the years, maybe things
that haven't got going.

JOHN: I think the thing with the mine was just,

well, how the hell can we
really make it interesting?

And it's not a film.

How can you have as enough visual

and physical things down
a mine without, you know.

PAUL: It's true.
Finding something that,

I think it might have been around a time
when

we're not searching for it or even
thinking of it, but I think that might

have been just you and me on our own
and we didn't really find anything.

It was only when we read
that Michelle Faber story,

"The Fahrenheit Twins", the material
kind of connected, didn't it?

landed within emotion.

HAYLEY: But I can't really remember what we did.

But in my memory it got, I think,
a bit mucky in a way that wasn't funny.

And I think that's not really,

if we have any sort of sex in Idiot shows,
it's got to be funny.

PAUL: Got to be funny, funny.

HAYLEY: I don't think there's ever been
a touching sex scene, but anyway.

I mean, as in not touching, but

I think that just got a bit like...hmm..

yeah. That's all I can remember.

JOHN: There are some nice moments, though,

I mean in "On The Verge", the
sex scene was just jumping.

PAUL: Oh, yeah.

JOHN: And you ended up jumping
up and down all the time.

And it was so funny.

Putting the bananas in the bin
and you're still jumping up and down.

JOHN: Yeah.

And I really love one moment
and I can't remember what the play was.

It was the one where we
had the spiral stair.

PAUL: "You Haven't Embraced Me Yet".

JOHN: "You Haven't Embraced Me Yet".

And there was you.

And who were you playing with?

PAUL: Yeah, well, we had Katrine and
two other people.

JOHN: You came home to find your partner in what
looked like

having an affair and you clocked it,
went up the spiral staircase,

got to the top and then ran down as fast
as you possibly could to, you know.

HAYLEY: Oh to try and catch the.

JOHN: Because you'd realized
what you'd just seen.

So it was a double take,

but it was the longest double
take I've ever seen because

PAUL: She disappeared into the
curtain at the top.

JOHN: I remember you going all the way up.

So we imagined the double take, or we saw in your feet.

The double take happened when you came running
down again, because it was very polite.

You got home, it's all very nice.

Up the stairs, up the stairs,
up the stairs, pause.

And tatatatatata down you came.

PAUL: I also remember
at the end of that story where

Hayley and I played these brother
and sisters in a fading variety theatre

where no one came to really,
and then this young girl turned up

to audition for us,
who played the violin, and she came.

It was a kind of love triangle, really.

And then at the end,

Hayley tries to get revenge
and decides to poison the young woman.

But we all have these buns,
I think, or cakes or something.

What were they?
HAYLEY: Yeah, I used to make them.

That was touring in a van.

I remember I had to butter the rolls.

PAUL: And she poisons one of these rolls,
obviously,

but the rolls get mixed up, so she can't
remember which one's got the poison in.

And it was absolutely
brilliant, that sense of.

She'd got the thing,

and then someone moves the plate and you
can see Hayley's face going, where the?

HAYLEY: No, I'm just going to say.
I can remember also,

because we toured with all
that stuff in the van for so long.

I remember one night we were eating them
and I thought, that genuinely taste bad.

And I remember having a little look while
we were on stage, and underneath they were

all blue, mouldy,
and I hadn't looked before this.

They'd obviously been in the van for ages.

PAUL: I think we just kind of went,
happy touring days.

Why don't we do three more questions?
And then I've got.

I'm going to read this one.
HAYLEY: Three is a good number.

I'm a bit hot.

PAUL: Three more.

"Has the idea of being an Idiot grown over

the years in line with
the name of the company?

Or did the name of the company feel like

it encapsulated what already
existed between you?"

HAYLEY: Can you say that again?

"Has the idea of being an idiot grown over

the years in line with
the name of the company?

Or did the name of the company feel like

it encapsulated what already
existed between you?"

JOHN: To my mind, it was because it
did seem to encapsulate it.

The idea of idiocy is another way of play,

because play is, there's
often no meaning behind it.

You're doing an impulse
without knowing why.

You might justify why at the end,
but if we like it,

we work really hard to justify it,
but ultimately you're doing it

from nothing very often,
which is idiotic, really.

It's going completely against it.

And that's the thing that I've
always found really exciting.

There was a TED Talk Ages ago by this guy,
Ken Robinson, I think his name was.

Have you ever heard of him?
He was an educationalist.

I think he's dead now.

And he told this story,
which always reminds me of you two.

It really does,
because it was about a teacher.

I was doing a drawing lesson with these
kids and there was one girl in the class

who was never really concentrating,
but she said, we'll do drawing.

Everyone is drawing.

And this little girl started to draw away

like mad and he'd never
seen her so engaged.

And the teacher went over and said,
what are you drawing?

And she said, God.

And the teacher said, but
you can't draw God.

No one's ever seen him.

They will in a minute,
said the little girl.

And that is such a brilliant story
and it was a brilliant podcast.

He saw something like 40, sorry,
75 million people heard that TED Talk.

It was really interesting about
creativity in education,

which is the same as playful
theatre and interpretive theatre.

It's the same dichotomy
that we're playing with.

We're doing something for nothing with no
reason at all other than you like it.

HAYLEY: I think I'm remembering,
I'm not sure I definitely know the name

because certainly one book I've got
but I've not read,

it's a tiny little volume that I think's
written by him and his daughter.

I think it's called "If" something,
but it is about education.

So I think that's him.
I've got another book.

I'm now thinking, is that by Ken Robinson?

Which is in your element,
which is finding where you feel.

When have you ever felt completely
in your element?

JOHN: Probably is.

I think he's a remarkable man.

He was like a stand up artist.

He was making jokes all the time,
but it was the ideas behind it, and very,

very pertinent, I think,
to the idea of devised theatre.

HAYLEY: It's only a little book, I must read it.

Okay.

JOHN: You haven't read it yet?
HAYLEY: No.

JOHN: That's so typical, isn't it?

HAYLEY: "Can the three of you remember
the first time you met each other?"

PAUL: Okay, I'll go.

I can remember meeting you, Hayley,

in the foyer or the lobby,
whatever you want.

At Ivy House, Middlesex Polytechnic,
in September of 1986.

And we were both enrolling
on the diploma in dramatic art course.

And I'd come to London from Birmingham.

I'd never really been to London at all.

And then all the first years
were gathering in that little.

Because it was Anna Pavlova's
old house in Golder's Green.

It wasn't a big university,

it was just like this sort
of drama department on its own.

And everyone was there and I suppose,

I'm sure I was very nervous,
thinking, you know, coming away from home

for the first time,
all that sort of stuff.

I could be wrong with this.

My memory said you had blonde hair,

or it might have been dyed and you
had a scarf around your hair.

This could be a completely different

memory, but certainly
in my memory it's that.

And I remember thinking when I looked

across at you that you
seemed very sophisticated.

I thought, who is this
very comparison to me?

I thought, that's very.

And I think that's my earliest memory.

And then

I don't know how long that sophistication
lasted for, but I think it was reinforced

because hadn't you been in Italy or
France or somewhere just before you were?

So that for me, I'd come from Birmingham,
I thought, wow, this woman.

This woman's been in France.

She must be very exotic.

And it's probably not the first memory,

but one of my earliest memories,
and I think I mentioned it in one of your

books in the intro,
was being in one of your classes,

which were totally different
to anybody else's classes that we did.

And it's no disrespect to any of the other
stuff, but it just was different.

So whereas sometimes in some classes,

we were being told how important it is
to find your position in the space,

and sometimes it's good to lean
against something in Shakespeare.

That's quite a good idea.

Anyway, we came to yours,

which was impro and mask and this stuff,
and it was like nothing else.

And I have a memory.

It must have been very early on,
and I don't remember what you'd asked me

to do, but everything was about we were
a group of students,

but then very quickly,
there was an audience of other students

that you had to present to,
which was really shocking and terrifying,

and you asked me to do something,
and I'm sure I was failing a bit,

probably being boring a
ctually, that earlier question.

You might have even said that,
but you stopped it.

Initially, I thought,
thank God he stopped it.

And then in front of everyone,
you went, "what are you doing?"

And I went,
"I'm doing what you asked me to do."

And then you went, "no,
no, what are you doing?"

And at this point, of course,

I can feel any of my last bit
of confidence dripping way out.

And again I repeated that.

No, I might have added, "I think I'm doing
what you're doing."

And you went, "I'll tell
you what you're doing."

People, I imagine, Hayley, one of them,
are starting to giggle or laugh.

"I'll tell you what you're doing.

You are doing your idea of what
a classical actor is,

whereas you're a short bloke
from Birmingham and you should be that."

Words to that effect.

And I remember feeling utterly mortified,
but then going away and thinking,

maybe he's got a point,
maybe he's onto something.

So that wasn't maybe the very first,
but it must have been a very, very.

And I don't know, I mean Hayley

and a group of us would walk up this hill
to college on your days with a brilliant

mix of fear and excitement,
which is the best as an actor,

the best thing you want, isn't it,
to have that combination?

But I don't know.
There's me.

HAYLEY: No, I remember feeling.

It was always a frightening
thought to go into John's class.

And I've got a memory of thinking

We mustn't be late.

We mustn't be late.
PAUL: Terrified of being late.

HAYLEY: You remember that.
And I think you had a big.

My memory.

You were like this dude, like, slightly
a dude with a big leather jacket.

I don't know if that's true,
but that's in my memory.

And I know I had short hair because I know
that I was a bit iffy about whether to do

the course or not because I had been just,
like, waitressing and stuff in Paris.

I'd not done any acting and I'd got a free

haircut at a hairdressing school in Paris,
so I had hair more like John's.

PAUL: That's my memory, very short.

HAYLEY: I can remember that and I know that,
I remember that feeling in John's classes.

And I can remember you having that journey
from a little bit of like, Mr. RSC, you know,

that's what I
want to be to finding yourself.

And I do remember when we
didn't know each other.

We were getting to know each other.

So it must have been like
maybe in the first term.

I don't think we were sharing.
I think I was commuting from Croydon.

PAUL: And I was living with that strange
elderly woman in East Ham.

HAYLEY: But, yeah, in my memory when I didn't know you very well

and thinking, oh, dear,
what's up with him?

You got food poisoning from Kentucky or

something, and you were like a pale
mauve colour for about three days.

And I remember going, oh, dear, oh.

But later on I think we sort
of got to know each other.

JOHN: I can't remember why I was in there,
but there was auditions happening

in the theatre
and I was at the back of the theatre,

it was dark and I'd come in and I'd seen
a couple of auditions and

there were some people waiting outside and
one person, I think, was just finishing.

And you came in the wrong door
and stood there and went out again.

And I remember laughing like
mad because it was so funny.

You just come in the wrong way.

Do you remember it?

HAYLEY: No, but I feel nervous at the whole,
talking about all this time in our lives.

JOHN: But that was the very first time I saw

you, and it was just the way you
looked round and walked off again.

HAYLEY: I think lots of people know stuff that I

don't know, but I'm
glad that it entertained you.

PAUL: We all have different memories.

HAYLEY: No, but I mean, as in generally,
about things that are funny.

But I do remember that I'd not done a play,
and I remember getting a

poem from Cosmopolitan magazine
to read at the audition.

And I picked a speech out of a play I

found in the library, which was
something about Joan of Arc.

I did a Joan of Arc speech,

but this is a bit sideways and maybe not
part of this, but I remember being in St.

Petersburg in Russia the year before the
pandemic with one of Peter Brook's shows.

And we were doing a press conference,

and we got there and, you know,
we're in this room for this press

conference, and it was me and a guy
called and Ervet and Oman.

We're all there with lots of people, like,

all there with their mic
getting ready, getting ready.

So I thought we were in the room.

That was the room.

And then I thought, I must go
to the loo before this begins.

And I got off and I went and I opened

the door, and that was the room
full of all the journalists.

And I literally just went, ah okay.

And I thought, no, not yet.

And then I came back in.

I felt awful stupid.

I don't think I told anyone that.

I'd already done it.

JOHN: It's very funny, though,
that sort of thing.

HAYLEY: My heart's racing.

PAUL: Well, that's a very good
one to come to a close on.

We don't have to do this,
but if you want to, we could.

When I finish a podcast,

I always do a quick fire,
sort of seven questions to the guest,

and they say the first thing
that comes into their head.

I haven't got that,

but I've got a kind of version,
a little mini quiz on Told by an Idiot.

HAYLEY: You know all the answers.
PAUL: Well, of course I do.

I've got to give you the answer to maybe,

I don't know, fingers on the buzzers or
something, and then you can go, bizzz.

My first question is,
in which show was pizza eaten from a box?

HAYLEY: I'm So Big.
Correct.

JOHN: God, I have no memory.

PAUL: Also, I'm not going to continue because
you weren't in a lot of the shows.

You directed them.

So I am gonna ask one
final question, though.

HAYLEY: Is that it?
Two questions?

PAUL: No, I'll keep going.

But I feel John is at a disadvantage.

HAYLEY: I agree, because he wasn't
in the shows.

PAUL: Um, in Aladdin, what was the name
of the camel that Erica Poole played?

JOHN: I have no idea.

HAYLEY: Not Gertrude, because that must
be magic roundabout, isn't it?

Erica played a camel...

PAUL: There was a moment in the show,

I'm giving you a clue, when Rick as
Abanazar turns up to try and get the lamp

at the house of Widow Twanky
and comes with the camel.

And Rick says, sit down.

And I sit down.

He's instructing the camel to sit,
but I sit because of the name of

HAYLEY: Because it is called "sit down".
PAUL: No, she's called Gorgeous.

And he used to say, "sit down, Gorgeous".

And I used to sit on the step ladder.

The guy in "Don't Laugh, It's My Life".

Which branch of the armed forces
did the son Warren Tatter join?

Played by the late, great Stephen Harper?
HAYLEY: Navy.

PAUL: Correct.

Because I used to go, hello,
son, join the army, have you?

In my madness.
In which Idiot play does the line,

"I'll stop you joining those
youth clubs" come from?

HAYLEY: The same one.

PAUL: No.

"...joining those youth clubs".

It was from "You Haven't Embraced Me Yet".

When I used to say it to you,

when you turned into the Terminator at one
point as a sort of robotic sort of.

And finally, where did we leave Memet's toy
horse from, on "The Verge of Exploding"?

JOHN: South Africa.
PAUL: Correct.

Correct, John.
And on that note, I would like to thank

my dear friends,
without which I would be nothing.

HAYLEY: You'd be in the RSC.

PAUL: Exactly.

What is this messing about?

I'd be playing these enormous
Shakespearean roles.

I could have gone.
Exactly.

Anyway.
HAYLEY: You might be running it, though by now.

PAUL: I wouldn't.
Trust me, I wouldn't.

Anyway, thank you very much for listening

to our final podcast from our
30th year celebrations.

PAUL: Dear listeners.

If you've enjoyed this Idiot podcast,
please spread the word.