PAUL: Hello, and welcome
to Regrets I've had a few.

I'm Paul Hunter,
Artistic Director of Told by an idiot.

This is a podcast where I talk to friends

and colleagues delving into what
made them the person they are today.

PAUL: Hello and welcome.

My guest this month is one of Britain's
most charismatic performers.

Her work crosses genres and takes

inspiration from theatre,
performance, art, comedy, and dance.

Her award-winning debut show,
Triple Threat, established her as one

of the UK's most standout new
voices in experimental performance.

And alongside her own creations,

she's now recognized for work she's making
and creating with other people,

including playing the part of Kathy
in Emma Rice's National Theatre Production

of Wuthering Heights,
and Titus Andronicus at the Globe Theatre.

It is also my great pleasure to say

that I'm currently rehearsing with her
at the RSC in Charlie Josephine's wonderful

new play, Cowbois, and I hadn't spoken to
her for about seven and a half minutes.

Welcome, Lucy McCormick.

LUCY: Heya.

PAUL: Thank you so much, Lucy.

I was very excited that you were going

to be in the cast when I saw your
name on that list of performers.

We might touch a little bit on what we're

trying to do it, at the moment, in the kind of strange
world of Stratford upon Avon.

But no, it's brilliant to have you

with us, as well as touching,
as I said, on a lot of your work.

I'd like to start by taking you
back to the beginning, if I may.

I think you said that you
moved around as a child.

Is that right?

When you were younger,
you were living in different places?

LUCY: Yeah, I was born in Newcastle, and

then we moved to Aberdeen for a bit,
and then we moved to Derbyshire,

where I kind of considered myself from,
but I mostly had sort of like my teenage years there.

But we did a couple of moves there.

I ended up going to five
different schools.

PAUL: Wow!

Okay, this might be interesting then,
because I often ask this to my guests, is,

can you remember a very early theatre
experience,

whether that was you performing
in a school play or seeing something?

Did your parents take you to the theatre

or is it a family thing
that happened or not really?

LUCY: I remember that my mum said she took us to
Matilda, which obviously is quite a famous

West End show now,
but obviously not that

it probably would have been in Newcastle.

I remember saying that when there's

a child that gets picked up by their
pigtails and I just screamed and screamed

and we had to leave because I absolutely
refused to watch it.

But I don't really remember that.

But yes

we did a trip to London and
we'd already done a trip to London.

My mum had taken me to see Cats.

PAUL: Ok.

LUCY: I think we must have done another
one a couple of years later.

She said, I'll take you to a musical.
What do you want to see?

I said, I want to see Cats again.

Yeah, just stuck with what I knew.

PAUL: What was it about Cats
in particular that struck you?

LUCY: Oh, my God.

I just thought it was the classiest,
most beautiful thing I'd ever seen.

PAUL: Do you know that's...
It's really interesting.

My partner is a huge fan of Cats as well.

It was quite a formative thing for her.

I can connect with you over that.

Also, I'm quite interested
in the performance of Matilda that you

don't quite remember,
that you were showing some early signs

of your disruption in the theatre building
by screaming and wanting to get out.

LUCY: Early signs of cowardice, yeah.

PAUL: What about your own early performance?

Were you in school plays?

LUCY: Yeah, pretty much.

I remember my mum saying to me as well

that I never was massively
"a joiner iner"

and she was always trying to...

They're always trying to sort of fob you off

and say, do this, do that, because
they don't want to look after you.

She was always trying to send me
to clubs and I absolutely hated clubs.

Then she did say that she couldn't believe
it when one day, and I think I was maybe

11 or 12, I said, Oh, there's
this drama club and I want to go.

Yeah, from secondary school age, I was
always in the school musicals and stuff.

That was, to be honest,
the height of my fame.

It's really all been downhill since I

starred in Honk, the Musical
in the Derbyshire Dales.

PAUL: I don't believe that for a second.

Although the idea of you in Honk, the
Musical, something that doesn't feel...

You said your mum was surprised when you

suddenly declared, Oh,
I'd like to join this club,

because you said, you felt sometimes you
weren't a great "joiner iner" or whatever.

What was it about performance

that suddenly made you go, Oh,
I quite like the idea of getting up

and being somebody else or trying
to do something like that?

LUCY: I don't kniow, I think it's hard
to articulate that, isn't it?

But it's weird.

You just kind of...

It's just an instinct.

I definitely wasn't very good, and I
haven't been very good most of the time.

It's not like, oh, you have this.

But I just really wanted to do it.

Eventually, I went to Derby Youth Theatre.

Yes, the great Pete Meakin
used to run Derby Youth Theatre.

I don't know, I just really wanted to do

it, but I really don't think
I was particularly good.

But I don't know.

I wanted to be good.

I think it's cheesy, isn't it?

It's like I wanted to sing
songs and do dance routines.

PAUL: But also, obviously,

I've certainly seen you dance in rehearsal
and hearing you sing in rehearsals,

you strike me as being very, very good at
both of those disciplines, I have to say.

Did you do drama at school
then, as a teenager?

Was it something that you did
as a lesson or not really?

LUCY: Yeah, we did drama at school.
PAUL: Okay.

So you're doing that.

You joined Derby Youth Theatre.

That's obviously something
you're really into.

At what point did you go,
I want to pursue this.

I want to give this a go.

I'm thinking about this more seriously.

LUCY: Basically, from then. From like 11,
I was like, right, that's it.

PAUL: Wow, really?

LUCY: Yeah.

I was like, I'm going to be an actor.
That's it.

PAUL: That's very determined.

LUCY: Yeah, because it's quite fun, isn't it?

It's not like a real job.

My mum was constantly asking me if I

wanted to do teacher training until about
two years ago when she finally stopped.

PAUL: Can I say?
That is something we share, Lucy.

I don't know about your background.
I haven't asked you.

Do you have any show
business in your background?

It's all in your family
or are you the only one?

LUCY: No, no.
PAUL: Yeah, I was similar.

I think I'd said this before and listeners

will remember this, but my dad was
an electrician, my mom was a dinner lady.

A bit like you, well,
no, I really like sport.

That's not true.
I like being in sports teams.

I really enjoyed that.

I never really thought about drama.

But eventually, when I did a school play
at about 15, I thought I really like this.

Then I kept it to myself because it wasn't
the thing where I went to school

in Birmingham and the people
admitted they wanted to do.

Then eventually I came clean with it

to my parents and my elder sister
and they said the same thing.

You're really good at English.

Why don't you go to university and you
could teach English?

I said, I don't want to do that.

Then my sister said, but if you do that,
you'll have something to fall back on.

I vividly remember saying,
I don't think I knew this,

it was more of an emotional response.

I kind of shouted "if I have something to fall
back on, I will fall back on it."

Which in a way, I look back
on that and I thought that's...

Yeah, I'm quite impressed with my younger
self for saying that, you know?

LUCY: Oh, my God, definitely.
Yeah.

It is quite an all or
nothing thing, isn't it?

PAUL: Well, I suppose in a sense,
I wasn't stupid, well I was stupid,

but I realised I couldn't carry
on forever if it wasn't working.

But I suppose you're
dried from an early age.

Did you start to think about drama school?

Did you have a teacher
who advised or helped?

How did the training...
Because you went to East15, didn't you?

LUCY: Yeah.
PAUL: So how did that come about?

LUCY: Well, I auditioned to all the fancy

schools and I didn't get in,
so I went there.

PAUL: Yeah, same here.

I've had quite a few guests
who have come up with that answer.

LUCY: I mean, come on.

If I'd have got into RADA,
then obviously I would have gone.

PAUL: Did you go somewhat reluctantly
or did you think it's a drama school?

I want to go.
LUCY: Yeah, no, I didn't go reluctantly.

I mean, I was aware.

It wasn't like, yeah, or maybe I
wasn't as aware, to be honest.

I just thought it's in London,

although I didn't really realise it isn't
quite in London, it's quite far out.

I knew that Alison
Steadman had gone there.

Now, I'm really pleased that I went there.

I think all these courses, a little
bit you make of them what you will.

I'm sure they've all got pros and cons and
stuff, but it's quite like, I think...

I was going to say experimental.

I don't think it is
experimental these days.

It's actually quite a standard drama
training, but I think there's still

a sense of like, they're quite into
improvisation and play and all that.

PAUL: Yeah, for sure.
What course did you do?

LUCY: I did the three-year acting course.
PAUL: Oh, okay.

LUCY: Yeah, the traditional actor training
course, because I know they've got a very

well-respected contemporary
theatre course as well.

PAUL: Yes.
No, I never wanted to do that.

I would just absolutely...

I just wanted to act.

I didn't think for a second I'd end
up making my own work or anything.

PAUL: Well, that's interesting because that's

going to bring me, obviously,
to those questions I'm fascinated about.

But that's interesting.

You were clearly still hoping for a part

in a revival of Cats at some point
then when you went down to...

Lucy: Oh yeah, I mean-

PAUL: It's interesting
because you mentioned the contemporary,

whatever the course is
called there.

At Told By an idiot.

We've worked with quite a few younger

performers that are brilliant to have come
off that course in terms of their instinct

and their skills
and the things they can do.

It's a very interesting place in a sense,
and when I've taught there a bit as well.

LUCY: Yeah.
PAUL: You go wanting to be an actor.

LUCY: Yeah.
PAUL: How does the journey into suddenly going,

I want to make my own work,
how does that happen?

LUCY: Well, I started in an extra curricula way,

just playing around with some ideas and stuff
with two other people

and we formed a company.

This was all like, yeah,

outside of my drama school training,
and I still definitely wanted to get

the agent and get all
the acting jobs and stuff.

But we made this show and we started doing

it in fringe theatres,
like pub theatres, really.

I don't know, eventually it must have

gained a bit of interest,
especially on the more experimental scene.

We got into a festival
called Spill Festival.

You probably know it.
PAUL: Yes.

I'm not sure if it's still going, Spill.

It might be.

PAUL: Did Spill happen in Birmingham?

LUCY: No.

Spill used to happen in London, and then
it was between London and Ipswich.

It might still be going.

They did, at the time anyway,
a programme of emerging work

and they would invite a lot
of international programmers and stuff.

So our show, our first show got into that.

Then we got quite a few international

gigs from that and did a lot
of kind of touring around Europe and stuff.

PAUL: What was the show called?

LUCY: The show was called External.

PAUL: You were still training at the time or
you left East15 at the time of this?

LUCY: I think I just left.

Yeah, we were playing
around with the idea of it.

Then the year that I left, I think,
yeah, all that really took off.

PAUL: And I mean this will bring me closer to your process,

I suppose, as you've gone
on making your work.

That show, that first show that you
made with two of others, did you say?

LUCY: Yeah.

PAUL: How did you create that?

Was that through improvising?
Was it a script?

Was it a combination of things?

How did you.?
LUCY: No, not a script.

It was improvisation, devising, really,

but very long form improvisation, which is
quite different to my process now.

But it would be...

Because it was more of a company
and we would spend just hours just...

Yeah, just exploring ideas and

devising and trying stuff out and filming
all the improvisations and going through

it and picking bits that we like,
bits we didn't like,

and I suppose making a script,
a little bit of script out of that.

Yeah, whereas my process now
is quite different to that.

Obviously, I make work under my own name

now, and sometimes I work with other
people, but it's not quite such a...

I don't really do a lot of improvisation.

I mean, I don't know if I'm jumping the
gun now, but-

PAUL: No, this is interesting. Carry on, yeah yeah.

LUCY: Well, my work now, you know what?

What it feels to me now is that having
the idea is the really important thing.

Obviously,
we do chat about it in the room or I'll

talk to my outside eye, Ursula,
and discuss things with her.

But basically, I'm trying to have
good ideas, and then I do them.

I know that doesn't sound very in-depth,

but I'm just trying to be
really honest with you.

PAUL: No, that's brilliant.

That's really, really cool.

That's a really cool way of describing
what you're trying to do.

That was brilliant.
LUCY: Yeah.

I feel like I've tried to talk about
my work before and I've tried to come up

with a in-depth,
intelligent way of saying that.

But how it feels to me is that a lot

of the work is done inside my head
and trying to think about...

What that's about is trying to find
the right holding form for something or

basically the right sort of Pun quite
often is like "What is the joke?"

Then it's about doing it.

And obviously, you have to do a bit of work
finding out how to put that together.

But I do a lot of my work is like
sitting on the tube, listening to music,

or randomly thinking about
stuff when I'm walking around.

It's much less about going,

I need four weeks rehearsal space
to improvise around the theme of X, Y, Z.

It just isn't that.

PAUL: Well, it is interesting hearing you,

and very entertaining to hear
you talk about your process.

Obviously, we share a friendship
with Ursula, brilliant Ursula Martinez,

who was my outside eye on an Idiot show
last year, and she's fantastic.

But where I feel a connection,
I'm sure our work is very different

in many ways,
but where I feel a connection is

people often think we have a very
particular style of how we do something.

I often hear myself,

I've been talking to students,
or whatever and saying, so much of what we do

arrives by mistake or
by accident or by chance.

That's not to say we don't plan things,
but I think some of our best ideas come

when we're responding or we're open
and responsive to what

is happening rather than going,
this is all very considered and then we

know this will happen
and then that will happen.

It's interesting when I've been reading

obviously a lot about your work as well
in preparation to chat to you as well.

It's interesting when you say you talk so
simply about it,

and then I just want to read something
back to you, if you don't mind.

It's not from a review or anything.
LUCY: Oh, God.

PAUL: No, it's not from a review.

LUCY: No I won't like that

PAUL: I know you won't.

But I'm just interested in,

this is what someone else might say,
"The way she plays with power

and authenticity is
part of what makes her so addictive."

I thought that was a really interesting

someone talking about
how they see your work.

I suppose your persona,

the version of yourself, you say your
shows have your name, but to what...

What is that version of yourself?

I suppose I'm trying to get at.

What is that version of you on stage
that you're playing with?

LUCY: Yeah, this is also a question that I've
played around with various answers to this

question, so I'm just trying to pick
in my head which one I'll say today.

PAUL: That's all right.

LUCY: Well, no, but I think also maybe I'm
refining my answer, which is that

the persona is a question itself
in the work always.

There are different levels of...

Again, it feels to...

I don't know how it comes across,

but it feels to me as if there are
these different layers of the persona.

And at any time during the show, I might be
on level ten or I might be on level one.

Sometimes when I'm performing,
I feel very, very close to myself.

I'm literally just like this,
talking now as me at times in the shows.

And then five minutes later, five seconds later,

I might feel like I'm really doing almost
like a caricature of myself or an extreme

version or an awful version or
a brilliant version of myself.

The shows feel like an attempt

almost to find out who I am or find
out who the audience wants me to be.

I just think that that is just
something that is explored.

It's not a concrete thing in itself.

Yeah, that's how I feel about that,
I think, right now.

PAUL: This
is a quote that I think you said at some

point, I'm not holding you to it,
but I was also interested in this.

This isn't someone...

This is attributed to you anyway, Lucy,

where you said "My shows are a way
to test out a braver version of myself."

LUCY: Hmm, yeah.

PAUL: Is that somthing you kind of -

LUCY: But I think
that's fair enough, don't you?

PAUL: For sure.

LUCY: I think anyone that performs,
if only in life, we got to rehearse what

we were going to say and then say it,
I mean, come on, that does help.

I think I also...

Vulnerability is also really
important to me when I'm making work.

But I think that some people do ask me
about being brave sometimes because

my work can have these quite
extreme moments.

Just really, that I think I feel like

in a way, any performance is a bit
of a performance of being brave.

But I think that especially for me,
because I don't know...

Yeah, because I do play with persona, I
feel like I can do a lot of stuff on stage

that I have my moments in real life,
don't get me me wrong,

most of the the I just let things
slide because it's easier. Simple as.

I just want an easy life.

PAUL: But I suppose I've also

been in a rehearsal room with you,
which I'm really enjoying.

And we don't have...
It's quite a big ensemble show, isn't it?

There's lots of us on stage.

I don't want to give too much away about

this, I think, rather wonderful
script that we're we're doing.

LUCY: Yeah.

PAUL: And the impact that a character has

on the community, in a sense,
which I find interesting.

But what I feel when I look at you,
which is maybe something that connects

to me, is it feels like you
have a lot of pleasure.

LUCY: Really?

PAUL: I don't know if you'd use that that It's
a word that we use a lot.

LUCY: Yeah.

PAUL: Having pleasure as a performer

feels really important to me that it's a
really important thing to try to nurture.

When I look at you,
I feel there's a lot of pleasure there.

That's maybe my interpretation of-

LUCY: Well, I really like that,
and it's not a word that I usually use,

but I probably will now because
I think that's a good word.

I think I talk sometimes about desire,

but that I start from, oh, there's
a performer and an academic called Lois Weaver.

Do you know her?
PAUL: No, I don't.

LUCY: So I was at some talk that she was doing,
and she was talking about,

put something quite simply about,
What do you desire to do on stage?

So that feels close to pleasure in a way.

But I mean, what's the point
if you don't enjoy it?

It's good to-

PAUL: Exactly.

And also I think somewhere wrapped up in that,
that,

is for me, is enjoying not having any vanity or
enjoying the sense of I don't really...

If I'm in the situation and it feels
authentic and genuine, then it's...

Obviously, that's something I think
of when I think about your work -

in a really brilliant way,
there's a real lack of vanity about...

And I don't mean any specific extremes of behaviour,
I just mean, because to me, performing

is always the tension between
caring and not caring at the same time.

And I think the more that performance play

with that tension,
the more brilliant it can be.

LUCY: I love that you said that.

Yeah, I think it's a brilliant thing to
try and get rid of your own vanity.

Well, obviously any any time -

but when you're performing.

I mean, I definitely can't do it outside
of of performing. But our jobs are...

Is actually about being looked at.

That can instil certain sanity.

But actually, yeah you have to sort of... I dunno It's also
about a certain generosity or something.

PAUL: Yeah, I see what you mean.

Also with an audience as as well,

I think that
is something audiences really love,

I think, when they feel that and they
feel a certain type of authenticity as well

I think that's something that an
audience really connects with.

I feel like

it's brilliant talking about your process,
but but I feel time to go to our item

that we have each month,
which is Ask an Idiot.

CALLER: Hello, my name is Anna,
and my question is: Which one of the shows

that you've written means
the most to you and why?

LUCY: Well, that's like choosing
a child, isn't it?

PAUL: You don't have to choose a child.

LUCY: I mean, yeah.

I think the obvious answer to that is
my first show, Triple Threat,

because there's nothing like a first show,
do you know what I mean?

I think your first show can be
almost like a mission statement.

Or it's like you when you don't have
anything to go off and nobody knows

who you are, you just feel like you
have to pour everything into it.

PAUL: There's a freedom in that as
well, isn't there?

Because people don't know what to expect,
they don't know who you are.

I remember this with our first show.

For me, the thrill of it actually
being able to do it was enough.

Just getting it to end of it.
Do you know what I'm saying?

LUCY: Being allowed the stage.
PAUL: Exactly.

Well, I think, for us, the key,
I remember saying this to Hayley,

who I also know you performed with,
so there are more links there.

But I remember Hayley and I saying,

in a way, of course,
we want this to be successful

on The Verge of Exploding
all those years ago.

But I remember also thinking, but whatever
happens, no one's ever done this.

We haven't taken taken play off a shelf.

It's not a version of a Shakespeare.

We have made this up and have put it on.

That first time of doing it,
I can really relate to what you you say,

that first time of going,
I did this, or we did this.

LUCY: But then I think

it's also really exciting to then develop
where your thinking is at and what you

want to make make next. You know, I
actually think my other shows

are probably better than that show,
but it just had a very...

There was a very special
moment with that show.

Weirdly, I'm about to do that again

for the first time in a
few years

PAUL: Wow!

LUCY: Just randomly.

That'll be really interesting
to revisit the first one.

PAUL: Yeah.
Where will you do that?

When will that be?
LUCY: Well, the tickets just went on sale today.

It's sold out, actually.
PAUL: Has it?

LUCY: Yeah...But I don't know.

Maybe there'll be some more or something.
I'm not sure.

PAUL: That's cool!

LUCY: But it's on the 8th of November.

Oh and it's in a tiny little venue as well.

In London, it's part of this festival

called called Croydonite. But yeah,
it'll just be interesting to revisit it.

I don't know if that means
the most to me, that show.

It's the real moment that when you have
this moment to prove

yourself or say something for yourself and
nobody gives a...

When I made my second show, I did
feel this massive pressure of like...

Basically, I didn't really
believe that I could make it.

I thought that it was like a fluke.

I thought it was like,

Oh, I made that and it went really well,
but it was almost like a mistake.

So the second one was...

Well, they were all hard to to make.

PAUL: Has that become a recurring pattern that each
time you go back to the the rehearsal

room, you feel I can't do it it
It was a fluke last time.

LUCY: Well, at the risk of sounding something...Overly confident, it hasn't.

I actually feel pretty
confident now with...

I think it's because with the kind of work that I

make, which you mentioned it's kind of inspired
by lots of different forms,

part theatre, part comedy,
part performance art, part cabaret.

In cabaret, for example,
you have really clear tropes.

It's not as if you go to see a
cabaret person or an artist or something

and think like, Oh, what are
they going to do this time?

You have a sense.

You are kind of going see
to experience what you know of them.

I think people know
it's going to be me for a start.

It's going to be a certain thing,

which I have developed, and absolutely,
the more I do it, I'm comfortable with it.

I know what my starting points are.

I know some of the things that I'm going
to work with, that I'm going to do.

Even what I'm going to say,
like little bits that I say,

I'll say them in every show
because they're like, It's your shtick.

Do you know what I mean?
PAUL: Yeah.

LUCY: What I'm trying to say is I actually don't

feel like that,
which is pretty cool to like

PAUL: Yeah

LUCY: And also it's partly
because my process is also about...

Where I really feel like my work lives,

in a way, is not in the hour-long shows
that I make and basically put on to

create further visibility and get money
and create opportunities for myself.

But I do a lot of bits and pieces,
10 minutes here, 10 minutes there.

That might be more on the cabaretSo side or

more in a comedy or a performance-like
environment, but it's testing stuff out.

Or more than that, making the work,

I don't know, for that night,
and it speaks for itself.

So I'm constantly doing it and developing
developing it that when I come to a show,

it's not so much like
starting from scratch.

It's more like,
Oh, what is this collection of ideas

that I've been looking at over
the past year or a couple of years?

That's pretty nice, to be honest,
at this stage, because it's very different

to when I was first working and just
being like, like, ah who am I?

And what do I want to say?

PAUL: That's a really , again, a really interesting way

of you kind of illuminating what it is you do, because feels like you're

also trying things a lot,
but you also sound like you're trying

things a lot in front of an audience,
and I really like that.

It's in our own way,

something that we often talk about
there's no reason to do do anything,

if there is no no audience, it's pointless.
And I think that sense of

trying to consistently try it in a live
environment with people watching,

however rough it might appear, I
think there's a lot of merit in that,

and we discover huge amounts, I think,
when we're making something.

LUCY: Yeah, I think that's what I was trying to say

when I said it's pretty much
like have an idea and do it.

PAUL: I feel we brilliantly
full circled. But I do have a couple of questions

which maybe touch on the
title of our podcast, Regrets.

Do you have any regrets that you haven't
been able to go down and be in something

like Cats, a big musical like - Is
that something you would still like to do

or is that now confined
to your childhood dreams?

LUCY: Well.

PAUL: You never know who's
listening as well, Lucy.

So you never know.

LUCY: Well actually, I have just had
an audition for West End musical.

PAUL: Can you speak about it or is it under wraps?

LUCY: No, but it was just an audition.

I mean, I think I almost
definitely didn't get it.

Well, Musicals are not like my...

I'm open to it, but it's not what I'm
looking at, if you see what I mean.

PAUL: Yeah.

LUCY: But yeah, I love acting,
and that's been something that...

You know, when I was doing a lot of making
shows and stuff, I think I did fall out

of love with acting for a bit because it's
easy to fall out of love with acting,

or at least it's easy to fall out of love
with the industry because...

Well especially when nobody
wants to give you a job.

But then I, kind of like, I don't know, found it again.

I think a lot of my friends that work more
in performance art probably think acting

is really uncool,
and that's fine because it kind of is.

But I love it.

I think it's magical and I love
the process of it.

What am I trying to say?

In a way, I do have have regrets, I
really would like to do more

acting and keep getting these
these big fancy acting jobs.

But you just don't...

That's not really my call, is it?

And that's what's so true.
PAUL: No.

However, I do think, you know I mentioned Emma,
we both work with Emma, and now this show

and Titus Andronicus, It
sounds like you're doing some really

interesting performative work
outside of your own work.

I wonder...

You know, people often ask me: how do I balance running
a company and being an actor like

a Gun for Hire, pardon the pun,
with our cowboy show.

LUCY: Yeah, I'd like to know the answer to that.

PAUL: I was going to ask you that question.
How do you do it?

Okay, I'll answer first and then
you say how you find it.

LUCY: Okay.

PAUL: I think I balance it partly because

we have a brilliant small
team at Told by an Idiot.

Told by an Idiot is not just me.

There are three brilliant producers

that work with me to make the work, to
have the ideas, to do all of those things.

I think I'm very lucky that in some
ways that gives me more freedom.

I'm certainly not brilliant at it.

If you asked my family,
they'd say I was terrible at it.

But I think I've got better over
the years at using my time.

So when I'm working on this show as an actor,
then I prioritise the time around

that really specifically to keep
the momentum, which I have to do.

The company can't go on hold while
I go on do some acting.

So finding that kind of combination of people

that I really like working
with and we have a click.

And then also just personal things.

I mean, you mentioned Ursula,
who's clearly a big collaborator.

I presume you'll continue to collaborate.

I mean, she spoke so
highly and warmly of you.

And I think sometimes what I feel really
helps me is just half hour,

hour long phone call with Hayley. Like
the other day in Stratford,

I didn't think think get her,

but she was filming and then she picked up
and we joked and laughed for an hour and she

said, Oh, tell Lucy that I'm going to come up.

I'm not necessarily talking about work,
but touching base with someone who knows

me so well,
who goes right back to the beginning when

we were kids, really
trying to put a show on.

LUCY: That's brilliant.

PAUL: I find that very refreshing.
What about you?

Because you're balancing it as well.

\you say got your show coming back...
You're going to be...

How can you do it on the 8th?

Is that one of our nights off or something?

LUCY: Yeah. I've just booked in so much
stuff on all my days off.

God, I'm definitely going to regret it.
PAUL: Well, there you go.

That's the same thing, your time.

It's not like you put the whole
of that on hold, do you?

While you come and do an act in a play.

LUCY: No.
No, you want to invest in it.

Yeah, it is like you say, I suppose
it is just a balancing act.

But I don't feel... I don't know if you do
either, but you seem quite sorted with it...

But I just feel more like,
how am I supposed to do this?

It's stressful.
It basically just feels quite stressful.

PAUL: I know what you mean.

I think it can be, I'm not saying it can't be.

I think one thing that I really,
really try to say to myself

is that when I turn up in that RSC
rehearsal room,

I don't carry, and shouldn't
carry, enormous responsibility.

My responsibility as a performer is
to turn up on time, to be open and to know

my lines because you're
asked to for some script.

And sometimes I think that's overrated.

When I direct, I feel more responsibility,
obviously, because I'm having to initiate

ideas or set up things
in the room to allow them.

But as a performer, I don't think
we should be responsible.

We just shouldn't carry great
responsibility, I think.

Sometimes I have to tell
myself that.

Also, when I step in that room to go,
I'm not thinking about whatever it is I've

just been on the phone about or whatever
that gig is that we're trying to do.

I really hope that you continue to do lots
of other acting work,

and I hope I get to do more with you,
but I hope we all get to see more of you.

You're a great actor.

I also think one thing feeds the other.

LUCY: Absolutely, yeah.

PAUL: It has to.

They're not separate things.

It's still performance.

It's still you in front of an audience.

LUCY: Yeah, I totally agree that they inform
each other and can teach you things about...

yeah, let's face it,
plays are pretty experimental, more than

some stuff that we see as experimental,
like standing on a stage and pretending

to be someone else and pretending not
to see anyone else in the room

ie the audience.
I'm sorry, but that's really weird.

That's the best thing.

PAUL: I totally agree.

And some forms of theatre.

I remember a brilliant designer,
Julian Crouch, who was part of Improbable.

I remember meeting him.

Was directing Cinderella,
an improvised pantomime at the Lyric.

He said to me, I thought it
was really interesting.

He said, pantomime didn't exist
at all and someone today invented

pantomime, it would be
on somewhere like the ICA.

It would be a really experimental
form. Whereas we all sit there

and we sing songs and we
throw sweets at the audience.

I thought that he's actually right.

LUCY: That's so true.

PAUL: It's really quite wild.

Lucy, we could chat forever,
but we will carry on chatting.

It's been so lovely and it's
been so great to talk about...

It doesn't always happen you've
been so generous talking about your

process and sharing really honestly about
how you make things because

people who know your work or don't know
your work as a result come to you.

We're going to finish off before
we do what we need to do.

I always finish by asking
my guests seven rapid and you just

respond with the first thing
that comes into your head.

You've got a choice, don't worry,
it's not complicated.

Joan of Arc or Emily Pankhurst?

LUCY: Joan of Arc.

PAUL: Watching or performing?
LUCY: Performing.

PAUL: I knew you would say that.
LUCY: Hate watching.

PAUL: This might be... my next I think I'm
meaning this

question is to do with what you'd like
to use in a show in some shape or form.

Coleslaw or Hummus?

LUCY: Well, Coleslaw, because
I've already done Hummus.

PAUL: I Will Survive or I Am What I Am?

LUCY: I Will Survive.

PAUL: Canal boat or top of a tower block?
LUCY: Top of a tower block.

PAUL: The Exorcist or Frankenstein?

LUCY: Exorcist. Definitely.

PAUL: Sounds like one of your favourites films when you said that.

Maybe you could
do something with that?

Recognition or controversy?

LUCY: Recognition.
PAUL: Lucy, it's been really lovely.

Thank you so much.
You've been a brilliant guest.

LUCY: Ah, thank you.

Thanks, Paul.

PAUL: Dear listeners, if you've enjoyed this
Idiot podcast, please spread the word.