Paul:
Hello, I'm sitting here today about to have a chat with an old pal, collaborator and jazz pianist extraordinare, the wonderful Zoe Rahman. Hello, Zoe.

Zoe:
Hi, Paul. How are you doing?

Paul:
I'm alright. I have to ask, of course, we were just chatting before - you've had a very difficult time getting back into your house, but you're there now. The work is continuing, is your kitchen accessible? Can you cook food?

Zoe:
Funnily enough, the first time we tried to cook food, there was no gas coming out of the gas hob, so we had to change our dinner plans. We had a salad that night!

Paul:
Well, I'm glad you're back in and - don't take this the wrong way - I often think of food in relation to yourself when I've worked with you, so I

Zoe:
Many people do Paul, you're not the only one. On that note, sorry, Paul, I when I used to play with Courtney and we used to tour, you know, Courtney Pine, in his band, they used to call me Three Plates Rahman.

Paul:
And quite...that's brilliant. And it's quite kind of jazz like nickname as well. Three Plates Rahman is quite a good, like New Orleans old pianist sort of thing. It's really nice to chat to you. And I just, obviously we know each other well, but I just wanted to begin. Can you remember the first time you sat at a piano and played it? If so ,where was it? And what was the situation?

Zoe:
Well, it was actually, I mean I don't remember the exact first time. But it would have been on a piano, a 10 pound piano that my parents bought, which had woodworm and sort of candelabra type things coming off it. Sort of bought it just for us as a bit of a toy to put in a playroom, you know, and never expected any of us to do anything. My older sister ended up having piano lessons. And then I went for piano lessons - anyway, then we all turned you know, we just were a bit musical, basically. My parents had no idea, but they sort of had to go along with it. Because they'd bought the piano by then. And it was too late. We just carried on from there.

Paul:
So how old were you? Roughly?

Zoe:
That would have been about four probably. But I had my, and then I remember having my first piano lessons with, you know, a teacher sitting down. And I actually did, I found when I was clearing out stuff, you know, with this whole house move thing. And I came across, you know, some sort of old certificates. Apparently, according to the certificate, I was four when I did my first public performance, because they used to have back in the day when like music was sort of supported by the local council and things like that, they used to have these sort of county-wide competitions. And so our piano teacher would put us in for these, you know, you just perform in public, it's just a chance to perform in public. And there's a little panel and they would write a certificate just about, you know, just chance to perform. It didn't matter what it was, you know, it would just have been very simple pieces. And they even had I remember they had a sort of category for sight reading, can you imagine sight reading, in front of audience, aged five? You know, those things, I don't think they kind of exist anymore on that level. It was an amazing time. I think it was, that era was really good.

Paul:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. As you say the opportunities. Well, that kind of leads me to my next question, because I've been asking this to various people. I had a teacher when I was about 14, who was very inspirational, an English teacher, and kind of provoked me a little bit into the idea that possibly acting could be something that you could actually do. Do you have any teacher equivalent of that in your kind of younger years who inspired you or provoked you?

Zoe:
Well my primary school teacher, Mrs. Hawkins, who I still keep in touch with, yeah, I mean, again, in primary schools, she was amazing she played piano, she did so much music with us, we did end of year shows, all the, you know, loads of different things. And she had recorder classes, guitar classes. So, you know, it just, music was just a natural part of my everyday life, at school and at home, you know, so leading on from there, I mean, it was just what you did, and she encouraged it and encouraged it in us and my siblings. And then eventually when I was 11, I went to the like Junior Royal Academy. So you know, I had various teachers up to that point. And then from there yeah, my teacher at the Academy. again, who I'm still in touch with, she's in her 90s now, she came to a gig recently a couple of gigs recently, it was amazing, because I hadn't seend her for so many decades, you know, and then she just appeared. Yeah, she, you know, I didn't pursue the classical side of things, as you know. My older sister sort of did all that, she went to the Menuhin school and, but I went down yeah, the jazz route. Basically, I like making my own stuff up, I wasn't too good at learning someone else's pieces. Those are the people that kind of, like, encouraged me

Paul:
Because your parents weren't musical, am I right?

Zoe:
They weren't musicians. My mum was a doctor. My dad was a teacher, in fact a theatre, he ran a sort of adult education college. He was big into Shakespeare and poetry, and listened to a lot of music, but they weren't musicians. So in terms of you know, but he encouraged me again, like there was lots of, we grew up in Chichester, in West Sussex, and you know, any opportunity to go and listen to music. So at the Festival Theatre, or Chichester Festivities used to be a festival every year, lots and lots of different artists would come through. And any performance we could go and see, you know, they'd take us, you know, theatre, music, anything.

Paul:
And what about, when you were kind of in your teenage years? Were you in bands? Did you play in a group at school?

Zoe:
My brother and I, not at school, my brother, and I used to play, he had a, he was in a band at school. And we used to listen to like Herbie Hancock and, you know, Miles Davis, all kinds of, Horace Silver, that album, Songs for My Father, you know.

Paul:
Oh, yes, yeah.

Zoe:
And, you know, we just used to try and play. I have to admit, I was pretty rubbish. But I just, I had some I do remember, again, looking through some old diaries, I saw that I did actually, I'd written in my diary, like, I had like jazz piano lessons. It says in there jazz piano lessons. I was a teenager. The main thing I remember from what he taught me was he made me a cassette, which I listened to over and over. And on one side, it had Dizzy Gillespie Night In Tunisia. You know on tapes you would just switch the direction when it got to the end of that track, then it would play Chaka Khan's version. So I would sort of flip between those two things. And that's really, my listening, you know, the rest of the stuff that he showed me, I didn't enjoy the lessons as such because that was too formal. I just wanted to listen to the music and absorb it that way. And then I tried to play with my brother, we sort of played, but it wasn't really till college and then after college, I was quite a late starter really when it comes to jazz, you know, and I'm still learning it now.

Paul:
No, absolutely, god, it's a lifelong thing, isn't it? Was there anybody that you, or early memories, it doesn't have to be that early, but memories of seeing somebody play live that had a big impact on you.

Zoe:
I very clearly remember the first jazz gig I went to, in Chichester. And because up to that point, I'd been going to see, you know, classical concerts or yeah, all kinds of things. But jazz, the first real jazz gig in a sort of jazz atmosphere, you know, with a bar at the back, people having a drink, having a bit of, you know, that atmosphere, people talking...and the band playing, interacting with each other, playing without music and improvising. I was just totally fascinated. At that point, I just thought - that is, that is what I want to do.

Paul:
Ah. How old were you then Zoe?

Zoe:
Early teenage, I don't remember exactly, but around that time. And so from there, because there wasn't very much opportunity. You know, it was Chichester, it's not like London, where you can just go to as many jazz clubs as you feel like, you know, pre-lockdown!

Paul:
Yes exactly. But it's a big, it's quite a profound moment, isn't it? When you see something, and you as a young person, you go, that's what I want to do.

Zoe:
Absolutely.

Paul:
And it's not necessarily doing exactly what that thing is. But being part of that world or being part of that imaginative place. I remember seeing, when I came to London, I was about 17 to see some plays, and I didn't really know very much and most of them were quite conventional. Until I saw a production of Metamorphosis with Steven Berkoff and Tim Roth, a very young Tim Roth. And it was so physical, as he turned into this beetle and climbed around this frame, I thought, I want to do that, because I didn't quite know that theatre could be like that. So it's a big thing.

Zoe:
But it's that sort of, yeah, that light bulb moment, where it's like, oh, oh, music can be like that, you know.

Paul:
Yes. And you're absolutely right. When sometimes it is exactly as you say, like, when you think, you mean you can do it like that? And then having licence to do that yourself or being given permission, almost to pursue that yourself. I have a question about regret. Is there anybody that you regret not seeing playing live whether someone you missed an opportunity, who would that be? What was that?

Zoe:
It's funny because I've been thinking about this regret thing. The only things that I really regret in life are jazz musicians I've not seen.

Paul:
That's brilliant. I love that Zoe, that is a brilliant thing to regret. That's very good!

Zoe:
Because nothing, you know, other regrets you can try and do something about, like, you know, character flaws or things that I've said to people, you can you can kind of like try and change those, but actually someone who's not around anymore, that you've missed that opportunity to go and see. So in, I think it was 89, around that time, my brother and I had tickets to go and see Miles Davis.

Paul:
Oh my gosh, where was he playing?

Zoe:
But then he passed away, so like, then we didn't get to go.

Paul:
Ah, I have a similar story about having tickets in the early 90s to see Freddie Hubbard at the Jazz Cafe. I'd bought the tickets. And then he had something wrong with his mouth, he couldn't play. So they cancelled and then a few months later, he was dead.

Zoe:
That's terrible. Same and I have a lot of those, like Alice Coltrane, had tickets to see her and then she passed, you know, but recently now I've watched that film, the Aretha Franklin movie. You've got to go and see that. I watched it in the cinema, actually, last year. Amazing footage of a live concert from her baptist church that was recorded, I think it was in the 70s, it's called Amazing Grace, the film.

Paul:
Oh, yes, I did remember this coming out. Yes, I missed it at the time, yeah.

Zoe:
The most phenomenal film of like live musicians, playing, you know that energy and seeing the audience in a way that you know, reacting in a way to music that you never really see. Because normally things are edited, they're filtered. But this is kind of really raw, and you're right there, if you see it in the cinema, on a big screen, you know, you see these beads of sweat dripping down her. You know, you just like, everything is just, it's incredible. So she's one person I do regret not having seen live and lots of other people, and I mean, I can go on...

Paul:
Did you ever see Nina Simone live?

Zoe:
No, she's another one that I'd have loved to see.

Paul:
Yeah, I'd loved to have seen her. I remember, I don't know about you, when you're sometimes a student, you're not the most motivated of people. And I remember one night after drama school or rehearsal or something, going to the pub and some people were going to see the brilliant comedian and actor Max Wall in this Beckett play. And I stupidly didn't, I stayed in the pub and I thought, what on earth was I thinking of? But that's what it means to be young, I suppose, and stupid. Um, can we jump forward a little bit? So because obviously you went to university - and then what point did you go and study in America?

Zoe:
Well, that was after, so at university, I was doing a classical music degree which, you know, at Oxford University, which really wasn't me, didn't suit me at all. All I wanted to do was learn to be a jazz musician. So I spent many hours, in fact, I set up a society, like a jazz society, as an excuse to sort of come to London on a coach with a few people and go to Ronnie Scott's, you know, and just basically invite any jazz musician I could to Oxford, to do workshops or to gig. I was sort of, like, focused so much on that while pretending to do my sort of classical music degree, very badly. And then after that, so I knew I wanted to be a jazz musician, so I even did a dissertation on Bill Evans, you know, sort of shoehorned it in there. And then, so afterwards, I sort of hung around Oxford for about a year, had no piano, I sort of used to sneak into the practice rooms, sort of around the back of the Oxford music faculty. And then one day, the sort of Secretary saw me going in there, and she just kicked me out and said never come here again. I really had to sort something out to get a piano to practice on and then I eventually moved to London, and my sister had a spare room where she was staying. And she, you know, lucky for me, she had a piano as well, because she's a piano player. So I used to kind of like, sneak down when she was out, play her piano. And then I bought a keyboard. So I was practising. I remember listening to that album, Oscar Peterson Night Train and trying to learn that. I met, in Oxford, I did meet, because it was an excuse. And I was writing this dissertation on Bill Evans, I used to go up to jazz musicians at gigs, like I met, Julian Joseph's trio came to Oxford and they played. I went up to him afterwards, and I was just, got chatting, you know? Just wanted help from musicians. You know, how do I do this? How do I play jazz? Can you give me advice? So then I met up with him in London at the Steinway showrooms, like in Marylebone, he, he would meet there, I'd go and play him some stuff, you know, by then I started writing my own music. So I'd play to him and he just said, you need to listen to these albums. So he took me to HMV on Oxford Street, and we went to the basement where the jazz was and gave me a whole list of albums. So I did them in, he wrote the he wrote the list, I worked my way through them, I listened, you know, I learned to play like all these great piano players. You know, I just learned their solos. Not that I could do it myself. But you know, I just learned how they did it. And tried to then form my own kind of version of that, while writing my own music, and then also I had a lesson, also Jason Rebello actually was another person who came to do a workshop in Oxford. So again, I came for a lesson with him, and I only had one lesson with him, but everything he told me, you know, it was really, it was great. I mean, I'm still using that information from those people. I just wanted to speak to as many people as possible. Because that for me, jazz it's not about kind of sitting down with a book and reading about it. It's about actual experience. You know, when jazz was created, it was people actually playing live, you know, on a bandstand. So I've always tried to have that element as a way of learning the music

Paul:
And also, as you say, engaging and being provoked by those kinds of musicians as well, who are making you think about different things. And then what was your journey to the States?

Zoe:
Sorry, that was the question about half an hour ago.

Paul:
That's alright. No, no, you answered it brilliantly. I just was interested in your journey.

Zoe:
So then, because I met Julian, and around that time, I think he was on the television talking about Weekend Arts College. I don't know if you..

Paul:
Oh yes, I do yeah

Zoe:
So he went there. And then I don't know if he suggested or I thought that yeah, I think he did suggest I get in touch with them. So there was a guy trumpeter Ian Carr. And he used to run the weekly jazz workshops for young people.

Paul:
He wrote the famous book on Miles Davis as well didn't he?

Zoe:
Yeah, exactly. So then I used to go every Sunday to his workshops. And then that was really my first taste of, you know, being in an environment where people were learning weekly, you know, it was like a jam session, basically, he'd bring tunes and we'd play. He was very strict, you know, you weren't allowed in the room if you were late. Then from there, you know, people from there had also gone to Berkelee, the lady that ran that place, Celia Greenwood, amazing, you know, she's very good at looking at people's careers and how they could access funding to go and do the thing they really wanted to do. Finding a way to Berkelee, you know, was a path that had been forged before with other people. It took me a while to get there. But I, yeah, I eventually, I went on a summer course, I'd actually applied I think it was in Glasgow, there was a sort of five weeks summer course, Berkelee, and for some reason, I can't remember why now, that got cancelled. So I thought, right, well, I'll try and go to Boston then and do it there. Go to America. So I got some money, borrowed some money from someone I happened to be with at the time. And then I went to the summer course and Joanne Brackeen, one of the most amazing piano players, she was amazing. She played with like The Jazz Messengers, Stan Getz, she's written so many amazing albums. And there's one of her albums, Special Identity was one of the albums that Julian suggested that I, so she just happened to be, she teaches there on the faculty and she heard me play. She encouraged me to audition to go there full time. That's how I ended up, I auditioned, I got the scholarship. And then I yeah, then I went, I only went for two semesters. I didn't really have money.

Paul:
But what was it like being, I assume, in a minority, being a British jazz musician in America with American jazz musicians? What did that feel like?

Zoe:
Well the thing is about Berkelee, it's international. There were people from all over the globe. I mean, it was unbelievable. It's a bit like my son's school where he goes at the minute, you know,

Paul:
Now if I think, I remember obviously, when we first met, again, 15 years ago, whatever, when I was searching for a jazz pianist to come and work with us on our show about Boris Vian and I hung around like some odd groupie at your gig at the Southbank and introduced myself.

Zoe:
That's perfectly normal, Paul.

Paul:
And then you kind of took a punt, and we chatted and stuff, and then you joined us and you helped create, I think one of our most unique shows in I'm a Fool to Want You. And I think my memory, above all, I know Hayley shares this, as does Steve, was that because you didn't come from a theatre background at all, you were so brilliantly candid, and provocative to us in terms of improvisation. Because I think we would say, oh no, we don't do it like that. And you would say, well, you're just repeating yourself. And I remember feeling a bit like, mmm, OK. And it was,

Zoe:
Yeah, I've never been known for sort of being, you know, reserved.

Paul:
No, no, that's what was brilliant. It was, it changed the way we looked at improvisation even though obviously, you are working in a different form, obviously it's completely different, but the same principles apply, the huge importance and focus on listening, you know, that comes before anything else. When I see people improvising in theatre, and sometimes it's not working because they're not listening to other people, they're, you know, they're just doing their own thing. And then of course, since then, we've collaborated a lot, and most recently, you know, your brilliant score for the Charlie and Stan thing. I don't know about you, but when I've done something, we've made something, I I have a desire to move forward. I'm not terribly good at sometimes maybe making the most of the thing that we've created, you know, I don't, some people say oh, you should tour it more but Hayley and I have always wanted to move to the next thing. I just wondered, and also if I film something I've got no desire to watch myself. Do you actually listen to any of your albums ever? Or do you just do it and that's it now, I've done that.

Zoe:
No, no, I don't like listening to myself. I only do it because I have to, because I have to know that, you know, which track you're going to use in which order and which solo version, you know. So I have to, I don't, no, I don't sit down of an evening and put a Zoe Rahman album on!

Paul:
I wasn't no, I wasn't suggesting that!

Zoe:
But there is one album of mine that I do have that remove from, it's like Where Rivers Meet album, which is all my father's favourite Bengali tunes. So that I can listen to that because it's, it's, I just like the music, it's not, I haven't written the music, you know, so I have that one step way. And I can listen to it. And you know, at the end, the end track has got like, the sound of, I recorded off the balcony in Dhaka, my Auntie's balcony, with all the rickshaws, the bicycle bells, rickshaw bells, dinging away. And so that sort of comes in and it's like, that reminds me of going to my Auntie's house and all my family, my extended family out there, you know, so it's very emotive for me, listening to the album. It's nothing about me and listening to myself. It's about who I am as a person in my family connections and just yeah, you know, connects me to my dad who sadly passed away but, you know, it connects me back to him and, yeah.

Paul:
I'm going to go and listen to that again after this, yes, that's brilliant. I have one thing to finish off with. Without you thinking, I just want you to respond immediately to the things I'm about to ask you. Are you ready? Here we go. McCoy Tyner or Bill Evans?

Zoe:
McCoy Tyner.

Paul:
The sea or mountains?

Zoe:
The sea.

Paul:
Lying by the pool or waterskiing?

Zoe:
Oh, lying by the pool, come on.

Paul:
Chilli con carne or cottage pie?

Zoe:
Oh, Chilli con carne.

Paul:
Spider Man or Batman?

Zoe:
Neither.

Paul:
That is a brilliant end. Zoe, it's been really lovely chatting to you, you are without doubt, a brilliant musician. And I actually listen to your music a lot. So I'm allowed to do that. And I think anyone who doesn't know your work, needs to know it very quickly. And I hope we can get together socially at some point.

Zoe:
Definitely. It's funny, when I was thinking about this, and I'm thinking about like, you know, I thought you might ask me more about my regrets. And I, you know, I didn't really have any apart from the ones we were talking about. But I did have a...can I tell you a quick one? A lockdown regret was calling, my mum came, she came to visit us fairly recently. And she was desperate for fish and chips. So I'm like, OK, I'll call our local chippy, so I ordered ahead, I rang, you know, can we have five cod and chips, and then Pat went around the corner, to collect the cod and chips. The guy was like, yeah, come round in 10 minutes. And so Pat went, he saw a queue, but the chip shop was closed. And they were queuing for the post office. And then it turns out, I'd ordered fish and chips on the other side of London, like in a completely different establishment. And I felt so bad. Because the poor man, he'd waited like three months for a customer, you know, to order.

Paul:
I feel for your mother as well in that scenario, the level of disappointment when she'd waited that amount, and actually, I think fish and chips is, I mean, we went to our local one recently, and it was the best meal I'd had in ages. So I think that is a perfect regret to end on Zoe. And in some ways you're partly responsible for that as well, which makes it even better. Zoe, take care, love to the family. I'll see you soon.

Zoe:
All right, bye.

Paul:
Take care, bye.