Paul:
Hello and welcome to Regrets, I’ve Had a Few. I’m Paul Hunter, Artistic Director of Told by an Idiot, and this is a podcast where I talk to friends and colleagues, delving into what made them the person they are today.

Hello, and welcome. Thanks for joining us. I'm joined today by my dear friend and wonderful actor and colleague, Ayesha Antoine. Ayesha, welcome.

Ayesha:
Thank you very much. Good afternoon, my good friend and wonderful colleague, Mr. Hunter.

Paul:
I'm not going to dwell on all things lockdown - we've kind of exhausted all of that conversation - if that's all right. I'm going to jump straight in, in a sense, and ask you a little bit about your childhood. I believe you were born in Essex. Is that correct?

Ayesha:
Yes, for my shame...no, no shame. Born in Barking hospital, a born survivor. For the first few, I think first few months, I lived in Ilford with my grandmother. And then we moved out to Woodford, which is also Essex. Went to school in Essex. Yeah, I'm an Essex girl.

Paul:
You’re an Essex girl. But of Welsh and Domīnican stock, is that correct?

Ayesha:
I hate to correct you so early on Mr. Hunter, um, but it's Dominīcan and so you have the Dominican Republic and Dominīca.

Paul:
And there’s Welsh there as well or not?

Ayesha:
Yes. My grandmother on my father's side is a lovely Welsh lady.

Paul:
So how does that combination work?

Ayesha:
Um...well, as in, how did it work? Well, I guess...well my Nana is very Welsh, in that she's very musical, she loves to read and, yes, loves knowledge, loves music, and is very family oriented, so I think that is particularly Welsh, but I think the most thing that kind of takes in all of my heritage is being small, being a small islander. Dominica, tiny island in between Martinique and Guadeloupe, is basically a volcano. And I think there's something very introspective, but also a bit small woman syndrome that I think I've inherited from my Welsh and my Dominican heritage

Paul:
That sounds a fantastic heritage, and I have a..well, I'll ask the question first. When would you say you first got the showbiz bug?

Ayesha:
I would say, I've always enjoyed making my mum laugh. One of the first things I remember was telling a joke to my mum, watching her laugh, and then her getting me to repeat it for various adults. And I loved it, I never got bored of it. And I think yeah, I think that was probably the first.. I just enjoyed, yeah, hearing my mum laugh.

Paul:
How old were you, do you think?

Ayesha:
I would say about three or four. I remember the joke. The joke was about...it was probably very inappropriate. It was..

Paul:
Could you tell us the joke Ayesha?

Ayesha:
Ah, it will be a very bad retelling because it's very vague. It’s about people sat around a table. I'm a great storyteller! It’s people sat around a table and somebody and...lots of couples sat at a table and somebody says, “pass me the sugar, honey”. And somebody else says, “pass me the...summin summin” and then the punch line is “pass me the bacon, you pig!”

Paul:
It’s very good!

Ayesha:
Something like that. I really thrived off making people roll around with laughter

Paul:
It's a funny thing, isn't it? I can really relate to the notion of making your parents laugh. I was very keen to try and make my dad laugh who was a very funny man, but didn't laugh much himself. So if I managed to make him laugh, I felt a real sense of achievement so I can see what you mean.

Ayesha:
My mum worked really hard and we were just talking recently, actually, about what it was like to be a young black single mother in the early 80s and it was really stressful. My mum was stressed and angry a lot of the time and I think the relief of seeing that face break into laughter and a giant smile had a lot to do with kind of countering the everyday frustrations, you know?

Paul
Of course, absolutely. I can see that.
Am I right in saying that your first appearance on television was on Saturday Live.

Ayesha:
It was, yeah

Paul:
And am I also right in saying that you rapped the Salt n Pepa song Express Yourself?

Ayesha:
Yes, you are! It was Going Live! Phillip Schofield, Sarah Green, Gordon the Gopher, what were the two guys? Trevor and Simon. I worked out I was eight. A relative contacted my mum to say they've got this talent contest, anyone can join in, Ayesha would be great - because, as well as the joke telling, it's very common in my family, all of us when I was younger, all of us, all of the cousins would do singing and dancing for the adults, at every family event. So yeah, I loved to sing and dance blah blah but anyway, Mum said let's go, might as well. So we thought for the audition, my favourite song at the time was Buffalo Stance by Neneh Cherry. So we came up with the dance routine and I don't know if you know that song Paul...it was famous. She was on Top of the Pops Neneh Cherry, cycling shorts, big pregnant belly, rapping in a bomber jacket. She was my hero. And so it's all about gigolos. That's what that song is all about. Of course, I mean, I had no idea what a gigolo was, but I went on to the audition and did the whole attitude with the rap, “Who's that making noise...?” I’ve still got the cassette tape of me sounding like Orville, I’m so squeaky. And anyway, mum got the phone call about a week later to say yes, it would be great if Ayesha could join in, we just think it might not be appropriate at 10 o'clock on a Saturday morning to have an eight year old singing about gigolos. So we changed the song to Salt n Pepa Express Yourself. Oh my god, there was a whole reveal! I had like MC Hammer trousers, like a whole suit and tassels on the side of the trousers. And then as I started, I did a little dance break halfway through, I ripped them off, to allow for more flexibility!

Paul:
That is a brilliant and also, in some ways, feels like quite a Told by an Idiot image if I might say so. So you did that, and then how old were you when you got your Grange Hill audition?

Ayesha:
So I was about eleven, twelve?

Paul:
How did the audition come about?

Ayesha:
My cousin was part of like a stage school, I think it was like an Anna Scher type thing where you are part of the stage school and then on a Saturday you do the classes. I didn't do that. But my cousin had told me, or my aunt had told my mum, “look, the producers of Grange Hill..” because I think back then, I don't know if they do it now, rather than holding auditions where you'd come into Elstree, the producer would go out to visit local drama groups to see kids, you know, being themselves. So they said, “look, the producers of Grange Hill are coming, bring Ayesha and we'll just you know, she's only tiny, we’ll just squeeze her in, pretend she’s part of the group”. That’s exactly what happened. They brought me along, I kind of squeezed in, suddenly I was just sat there in the room and they asked me to be part of the new cast. It was ridiculous. It was so exciting.

Paul:
It's so interesting, isn't it? I can think of more stories of people who have gone along to an audition because someone else was there. I remember reading a story about Bob Hoskins, the late, great Bob Hoskins who was like a builder, and his friend was going along one lunchtime to an audition at the Royal Court and he said, “why don't you come along?” And Bob Hoskins went along, this East End geezer, his friend didn't get the job, but Bob Hoskins did.

Ayesha:
And they have never spoken since!

Paul:
Exactly! The character you played - was that already kind of created, or did you help create the character that you played?

Ayesha:
If I'm really honest, I can't quite remember the process, but what the audition process was, it was them just talking to me and asking questions about me. In the end my character Poppy Silver obviously looked a lot like me, but also was very like me. Very, you know, wore glasses, loved school, loved learning. I did end up getting bullied on the show, but it was because I liked learning. So I think they must have been very clever. I think they must have picked, like, created characters based on the children they had. Yeah, I think it was very clever. And when I think about it, a lot of the stage school children, I mean, a lot of the main cast weren't stage school children, we were from all parts of London, mostly east and north, not particularly affluent, not stagey children at all. And I think that's how they kept it.

Paul:
And I think that feeling I remember, even before your time, watching Grange Hill. And I think that was the thing that was great about it, is that you saw kids who seemed like yourself. They didn't appear like actors or stage school kids. That’s why kids liked watching it. Because you thought, oh, they're like kids in my school.

Ayesha:
Yeah, I agree. And it meant he really saw a change in kids TV, because I felt like that era of Grange Hill was full of, exactly, real kids. And then you had the influx of kind of American telly, where everyone was a bit shiny and Hollywood-y and yeah, it's a really stark contrast.

Paul:
And also, it felt like Grange Hill kind of was a bit more representative of school as it was in terms of the mix of what a school could be, would you agree with that?

Ayesha:
For sure, it was representative of London schools. I mean, much more so than the school that I was actually attending at that time. And it's really interesting looking back. I mean, recently, I've done a lot of looking back at what it was like in my school and, you know, were my teachers in any way discriminatory, of course they were, but how I had apologised for it. I went to a private school, I was the only black girl in my year, whereas when I went to Grange Hill, which, between the ages of 12 and 16 was, you know, three days a week for about seven, eight months of the year, I wasn't, I was among, I was in a class of children who looked like, who represented the community that I lived in, in Stratford. And I think it saved me Paul, and I've been thinking about it recently. Yeah, it really did, because it was much more representative, much more diverse and true to the world that I knew.

Paul:
But it must have been quite surreal to have those two experiences of education, one real and one not, but the one that's not real is closer to the world you live in.

Ayesha:
What it meant was, so the school that I went to, because it was so unlike real life, and so much, you know, it was closer to kind of the public schools of Boris Johnson and that, I knew that that wasn't real. I knew that for some of the people in my school, that was their reality. But I knew that for me, that wasn't real. And I think if that would have been my only access to reality, it could have really affected me and warped me. But because I had this other make believe that was more real, I don't know, I was just able to kind of keep it balanced, I guess.

Paul:
It's interesting. And how long were you in Grange Hill for Ayesha?

Ayesha
Ah, five years, 12 till 17. Yeah.

Paul:
It's interesting, in a sense, because there are lots of examples of actors who, as we all know, who have worked as children, and then it's not an easy progression from being a child actor to an adult actor. Obviously you've done that very successfully, but I suppose you've also strangely, not exclusively, but almost in reverse where you've gone from TV into theatre. Whereas for me, my journey into TV was through theatre, whereas you've kind of done it the other way around. Is there any regret about starting so young or not?

Ayesha:
I don’t have any regrets about starting young. I think because I realised that a lot of the, you know, resilience, confidence, kind of self..not confidence, but just kind of knowing who I am in many, many different kinds of situations, I think that was all helped by the many different experiences I had when I was younger and the support I had and, you know, I felt invincible when I was younger, and I think that has really helped me who I am, so I don't think I have any regrets about that. I think the regrets I have about my work when I was younger was I didn't take myself, I didn't take the job seriously, early enough, I think. It just seemed too good to be true for so much of my career, “I'm really getting paid to do this?” But actually, the one regret people do ask about is drama school. I didn't go drama school. And I think for a long time, I refused to believe that I could have regretted it. Just out of pure obstinance. It's not that I regret not going, I regret not finding out for myself whether it was for me. I counted myself out of it quite early on because I’d convinced myself It would just be another version of my school, where I was the only one, and I had to, you know, do all these kind of mental gymnastics. And for education, I was like, OK, I can do that. But for me to do the thing that I love doing, I just didn't want to be putting up with all of that nonsense. So I regret maybe not seeing whether I could have navigated it for myself before discounting it.

Paul:
But also that's a very valid, you know, reason that you give is that you'd already experienced something where as you said that didn't necessarily seem that real in terms of your life and that drama school probably at that time and continues probably, as we know to still be an issue, it probably still wasn't reflective of a lot of people's lives. So you chose to go to University of Manchester and did psychology, is that right?

Ayesha:
Yes, that is very true. So in my other life while I was at Grange Hill, I was also juggling wanting to be a barrister, and I always knew I wanted to go university, I read Adrian Mole when I was about 10 and I decided I was supposed to be a permanent student. That's what I wanted for my life. So there was no doubt I was going to university. It was just about what I was going to study.

Paul:
So but what point did the stage take the place of law?

Ayesha:
I didn't even know if it was stage necessarily. I realised that what I really wanted to do was to be in LA Law, so I realised I wanted to play a lawyer. And so and then Grange Hill, and I think once I started Grange Hill and I was being on set with everyone and I felt so respected and so equal to all these professional, amazing actors and people, that I realised that that's actually what I wanted to do for my job, but I also had my mum and everyone going on about having a backup. So university became what I wanted to do anyway, but also, you know, when I go back into acting, that was always the thing I used to say, when I go back into acting, it will just be my backup because it's not going to be easy. And I might have a month off every now and again. So it will be good to have a backup. So that's that that was the thinking behind uni. But there was never really, it was never a question whether I was going to come back into acting I guess it was just into what kind because I'd never done theatre before.

Paul:
Now I know, maybe you didn't make it to the cost of LA Law. But have you ever played a barrister?

Ayesha:
Never. I'm dying to, Paul!

Paul:
I think you'd be a very good barrister.

Ayesha:
Thanks, thank you.

Paul:
I played one once and I absolutely loved it. I found it a very, very Interesting thing to do, because I suppose it's very close to acting in a way, isn't it?

Ayesha:
Exactly.

Paul:
So, yes, obviously you went on to work in Holby City for a period of time as well, so you did a lot of telly, but what was your kind of journey into theatre? Obviously we met very early on in your theatre career.

Ayesha:
Yes! I grew up opposite Theatre Royal Stratford East and my godmother was an actress, is an actress. And so I grew up watching pantos, watching all the comedy reviews, the BiBi Crew, The Posse, you know, a whole generation of British black and asian actors, writers, producers, stage management, graduated from there. So I grew up watching theatre and I was obsessed with it. I loved everything about it. I loved sitting backstage and I never realised that there was a big difference between TV and theatre really, I thought they were the same. It was only when I came back from uni and was talking about the kind of work I wanted to do and people kind of made it seem like it would be very difficult for me to get into theatre, because I hadn't done any and I hadn’t been to drama school, and blah blah blah, which obviously made me want to do it more than anything in the world. And then, exactly Paul, very early on, one of the first theatre auditions I had was for a production called The Firework-maker’s Daughter, and it was a group audition, which got me excited anyway, and I turned up to this audition, and there were about 20 people, everybody looked completely different from each other and everyone was very friendly, and it was very physical and we were led by this crazy funny guy, who was really inviting and welcoming, and to me that was, that's what I had always thought theatre was, that's what I had always thought a rehearsal room would be and that was it. I didn't want to do anything but that really and then I got the job, which was absolutely amazing.

Paul:
You've obviously gone on to work at some extraordinary theatres, the Young Vic, the Donmar Warehouse, I think, all of these amazing spaces. Is there - and you don't have to name names - but is there any job that you regret taking? You can be very discreet Ayesha.

Ayesha:
Can I? I mean, I've never been able to be discreet before, I don’t know why you think, suddenly...

Paul:
I would say, while you're thinking. I remember very early on doing a job, which I'd done the previous year. They offered it me again the second year for like six months. And I was so worried at that point about would I work again, that I said yes. And I kind of slightly regret that I wasn't braver in saying no, if that makes sense.

Ayesha:
And how was it the second time?

Paul:
Terrible.

Ayesha:
As you knew it would be!
OK. No I can talk about this one. I think the first job I ever regretted was a play about...on the...ugh. It sounds beautiful. It's a gorgeous idea. It's about the man who introduced, he started, you know, the American version of tap dancing. It's like an amalgamation of Irish dancing and something called patting the Juba that was a replacement for a lot of the enslaved people when their drums were taken away. They would pat the Juba is what it was called. And so anyway, it was a great show. It was a lot of tap dancing, wonderful tap dancers, great actors. And I think, I mean, it really wasn't until probably a preview when I really regretted it, but we were minstrels. I was part of a minstrel show, Paul. Yeah. And in fact I don't even think I regretted it in the previews, it was, I think it was on the press night when I was dressed in a full corset - so I played a minstrel, I also played a madam, obviously, of the time, kind of Barbara Windsor type, and I was in this full corset and bustle and whatever and then we...that was it, I was having a contretemps with PT Barnum's missus who had a bit for the tap dancer and we were having a bit of beef over him. And in the middle of this very heated argument, we had to turn to the audience and start beatboxing. Yeah. And I remember turning to the audience, and I was full in it, Paul, full in it. And then I turn to my left to my colleague, a wonderful actress called Luanna Priestman, and we both looked at each other in our corsets and bustles, beatboxing, and just laughed because, I remember pointing at her and thinking, you look ridiculous. And we had to do that every night, looking at each other looking at how ridiculous we looked, particularly when one night I forgot to take off my blackface.

Paul:
I think that is a brilliant story. I think actors know, somewhere inside, don't they, about something. They don't necessarily articulate it but I can really again relate to that moment of the two of you looking at each other, knowing, “what on earth are we doing?” It's a strange thing. In Told by an Idiot. I think we've always had this, because we are actors, and we're an actor's company, and I'm an actor, I think we've always had the desire to ensure that there are no moments in the show in which the actors feel, “oh I don't really like this bit”. And by actively thinking that, I'm not saying we succeed every time, but by actively having it as a kind of desire to address, it makes me feel slightly better somehow, particularly when I'm directing and I'm sending actors out to do something every night, I want them to feel as much pleasure and as little embarrassment or discomfort as possible.

Ayesha:
And I think that is key as to why I love working with Idiots, why I love watching Idiots, is because at the root of everything is about listening to yourself, but listening to actors, listening to actors’ guts, the performers’ instincts, and yeah, of course they do lead you down the wrong decision sometimes, taking the wrong jobs, but like you're saying, I think if as a performer, you know that everything you're saying and doing and offering to your audience, you believe in, that is, yeah, that's invaluable.

Paul:
It’s interesting if we kind of, as we come to a close with our little chat here about you and about acting, it's interesting because I completely agree with you. That's a brilliant way of putting it, I think, about listening to yourself and listening to each other, and I've been very lucky to share the stage with you, to direct you, and in a sense, it was wonderful to share the stage with you and create Napoleon, when we were again, directed by another great actor, Kathryn Hunter, and a two-hander is quite a particular thing, to make a whole show when there's just two people, and you were so brilliant in that, all the things you ended up having to do and create but with immense heart. And then in the same sense, sharing the stage with you and watching you in something like Life of Galileo at the Young Vic, where you, you were brilliant in that and, and I think that range which maybe starts with Salt n Pepa and goes on through it goes off to Grange Hill or whatever, I think you've shown a brilliant range as an actor and I think your ability to be comfortable in lots of different forms is a real, real credit to you.

Ayesha:
Well I think, not to interrupt you Paul, but I think you can take a lot of credit for that, because feeling comfortable in a space isn't just about your skill level, it isn't just about your confidence in yourself, it really is about the spaces you are in and how you are treated in those spaces. I often feel very small in rehearsal rooms not in stature but also in voice, in contribution level, but I have never felt in an Idiot rehearsal room or any Idiot job, little, or, and importantly, I’ve never been the only one, Paul, and I don’t even know if you’ve done that on purpose, but that in itself allows you to feel unconsciously like you belong, like you are accepted, like you're among people who give you value. And that in itself unlocks everything, Paul, because you're not scared to explore your range to see how silly you can be, to see what your imagination comes up with, to see, you know, to try and make Paul Hunter laugh late. Extending that range is part of being accepted or feeling like you found your tribe.

Paul:
Well that means a lot, thank you very much Ayesha. Just before we finish, I wonder if I could ask you, I've got 10 very quick questions, which if you could answer, you'll get the idea of it but if you could answer without thinking just instinctively answer whatever.

Tea or coffee?

Ayesha:
Coffee.

Paul:
Prince or Stevie Wonder?

Ayesha:
Stevie

Paul:
Next question - fish and chips or curry?

Ayesha:
Fish and chips.

Paul:
Countryside or the city?

Ayesha:
A city that's close to countryside!

Paul:
Tube or bus?

Ayesha:
Tube.

Paul:
Aperol spritz or Pimms?

Ayesha:
Oh Pimms.

Paul:
New Orleans or New York?

Ayesha:
I’ll have to say, New York.

Paul:
Skiing or swimming?

Ayesha:
Swimming, all day.

Paul:
Camping or caravan?

Ayesha:
Camping.

Paul:
And finally, Spike Lee or Quentin Tarantino?

Ayesha:
Spike Lee all day, but both of them need to learn how to love black women properly.

Paul:
Exactly. And on that note That isn't perfect, and Ayesha. It's been a real joy to chat to you. Thank you very much.

Ayesha:
Thank you, Paul. It's been joyful.

Paul:
I will see you very, very soon.

Ayesha:
Yes please.