PAUL: Hello and welcome to Regrets,
I've Had a Few.

I'm Paul Hunter,
Artistic Director of Told by an Idiot.

And this is a podcast where I talk

to friends and colleagues, delving into
what made them the person they are today.

Hello.

My guest this week

is from my past
and it's really lovely to go into the past

and remember this person who I
haven't seen for some time.

But we go way back and he trained as
an actor, with me,

he was a very good actor and has now
become a rather marvellous agent.

A very good agent. So I will be touching

on a variety of things
with the wonderful Philip Belfield.

Phil, how are you?
Welcome.

PHIL: I'm very well, Paul.

I don't know if I can
live up to that review.

PAUL: I'm sure you can.

Now, if it's okay with you,
I say this to all my guests.

I'm not going to dwell on the last year

of bleakness, where we've all been locked
down and all that sort of stuff nonsense.

But as I said in my introduction,
we go a long way back to our childhoods,

the same secondary school and then,
bizarrely, the same drama school

or Polytechnic as it was then, of course.

PHIL: Yeah.

PAUL: I'm trying to think my first question
is I need some help with something.

What was the name of our
O Level Drama teacher?

PHIL: Sue Fisher Jones
PAUL: Fisher Jones, I knew it was double barrel! Because

I feel and you might have a different
memory, but my memory is that we kind

of got to know each other around
that O Level Drama. Would that be right?

PHIL: Yes, definitely.

Even though we were in the same
year group, I think we had different

friendship groups,
whatever you want to call them.

And I think it was the O Level Drama that
we first got to know each other properly.

PAUL: Exactly.
PHIL: And there were only three of us, I think.

PAUL: Who was the third person?

PHIL: She was a lady and her name
completely escapes me.

PAUL: Well,

maybe she listens
into this she can make herself known.

PHIL: Maybe she will.

It was Sue, actually,
or Miss Fisher Jones,

maybe we called her who I think
recommended the Middlesex Poly course.

Actually, I think it was her.
PAUL: Yes, you're absolutely right Phil.

PHIL: She set that in motion.

PAUL: Because she also knew

a performer who went on to work
with Trestle called Thomasina.

PHIL: Oh, yes, she did.
Yes.

PAUL: And I remember meeting Thomasina because

she ended up acting with Trestle,
John Wright's company.

But you're right.

Sue mentioned to you and me as we were

talking about drama schools,
that particular place.

That is true.

Now,

obviously, we ended up doing

the O Level Drama, but what was your kind
of connection to theatre before that?

Did you go as a family?

PHIL: I was thinking about this earlier.

We used to go to the Rep,

the Birmingham Rep, quite a bit,
but mainly at the Christmas time.

And I remember going to see my mum
remembers it still vividly.

They used to do shows in the studio
there and it was quite interactive.

So they'd get the kids involved.

And I think
me and my brother Michael as well.

I think we both went with mum and dad
or maybe just mum, I can't remember.

And I think it was just
exciting and quite interactive.

And then I think we would just go
and see the occasional thing at the rep.

I remember seeing a stage
version of Worzel Gummidge,

but with Jon Pertwee and Una Stubbs.

PAUL: Oh, gosh.

PHIL: Both late great. So I
remember that quite vividly.

Yeah.

And I think the first big thing I saw
that sort of turned me on to it massively,

I think, was a touring production of
West Side Story, which was the Hippodrome

which my mum took me to.

PAUL: How old would you have been then?

PHIL: I must have been 16, maybe.

I think it was quite late, really.

Ooh there's a cat coming in.

PAUL: Ah yeah, I've got a cat as well.
PHIL: Yeah.

It was West Side Story that sort of turned
me on to that, the musical side and stuff.

Maybe.

Ironically, I've just seen the new film.

PAUL: Well, it's funny you say yes.

And when I asked you how old you are.

My daughter Elsie is 15.

And she's obsessed with musicals.

PHIL: Oh, my God.

PAUL: And she's been very lucky to see
lots of wonderful musicals.

But she went with her mum to see the film,

and I said, she didn't know
much about the musical.

We kept saying, listen to the music.
We've got it.

And now, of course, she's utterly
obsessed and plays it on the piano.

But she loved the film.

I hear it's rather good, isn't it?
PHIL: It's great.

Yeah.
It's not even a reinvention.

It's just a revisit.

It's definitely an homage.

There's just so much that harps back
to the original film, actually.

The great film.

PAUL: Yeah.

PHIL: And it's just great because sometimes I
think stage things don't transfer

to the screen very well at all because
by their nature, they're made for live.

PAUL: Yes.
PHIL: Audiences.

But it just really works.

It's brilliant.

PAUL: That's a nice link.

My daughter's obsession with it. Were you
in the Androcles and the Lion production?

PHIL: Yes, I remembered that today.

Yes, I was.

PAUL: What did you play?

PHIL: I think a Roman Guard.

PAUL: Because I remember

giving my, the character was called

Spintho, who was a cowardly slave
who was thrown to the lions.

PHIL: Wow.
PAUL: Well, there we are.

PHIL: That's a bit of a bit
of

George
Bernard Shaw in a secondary school in Birmingham.

PAUL: Yes. Who would have thought it!

PHIL: Who would have thought.

PAUL: And then I remember you and I obviously

getting close during the O Level as
we start to talk about what it was.

And I was talking about this moment
in people's lives the other day because

of a new show we're making when you have
to, as a young adult,

reveal something to your parents about
what you might want to do in life.

Can you remember when you told your mum

and dad that this is
what you wanted to do?

And what was their reaction
like if you do remember?

PHIL: Well, I sort of do because I think
for a while and I don't really know why.

I mean, I'm obsessed with all things

medical still, but I thought
I might try and be a doctor.

Bizarely.

My mum was a nurse for a very long time,

and I think that sort of fed
into it a little bit.

And then when it came to O Levels,
what did you want to do, so I had to do

chemistry and biology,
I think I did an English.

Did I?
Yeah.

And the drama was like an extra
thing, in a funny way.

PAUL: Yeah.
PHIL: I mean, it turned out I failed

my chemistry O level anyway,
so that was probably the end of that.

But I think.
Yeah.

So the drama thing took off and the Middlesex
Poly thing came into play.

I don't think they were
that impressed, really.

My dad was in the army,
my mum was a nurse.

It was quite an alien
sort of thing to them.

And I think they were like, well,
how would you make a living doing that?

But they didn't stand in my way anywhere.

And I remember we had to have,

like an audition even to get
a grant from the City Council.

PAUL: We did.

PHIL: So I think they were sort of hopeful that
we wouldn't get one, and we didn't first.

And then we had to go again
the following year, didn't we? I think.

PAUL: That is correct.
PHIL: Bizarely.

PAUL: And when I tell,

especially younger actors.

When I say to younger actors, you actually
used to to be able to get a grant.

And then when I said, and in Birmingham,

you had to go and audition
in front of these councillors

PHIL: men in suits, definitely.

PAUL: I don't know what little connection
they have to the world of theatre.

PHIL: The one year they said no,
and then the next year they said yes. So

we both deferred our place,
didn't we, well we both got in

PAUL: And then, of course,

then we took ourselves off to London in
1986, obviously

we had a connection,
which I think for me was probably quite

helpful arriving in London
and going to this thing.

PHIL: Yes same.
PAUL: And I can vividly remember.

I don't know what your memory is

of that first morning, but one person that
stuck in my mind, obviously, was Hayley.

And she looked quite exotic to me.

She had a kind of hair thing on her hair

and she didn't quite look
like anyone else I'd met.

Do you have any memories
of people from that?

PHIL: Well, I remember Hayley.

Luckily we are still in touch.

I remember Hayley quite vividly because

for some reason I have
a memory of Golders Green.

I think I stayed with an aunt
for that summer before then.

So I came to Golders Green and walking up

that North End Road, that big hill up
to Ivy House where the course was.

And I remember this smallish,
sort of quiet, determined young woman

walking up the hill in front of me
with the hair thing and it was Hayley.

And I just remember that from all
those years ago, even now,

she was a really strong
presence and memory, as were you,

because we knew each other and it
was sort of clung together slightly.

PAUL: Yeah, I think so.
Certainly in that early period.

PHIL: But didn't we even share
the house? Didn't we?

PAUL: Well, this is what I was

end of that first term.

Was it you, me, Hayley,
Carrie and Mickey? Down in Golders Green.

PHIL: Carrie Swan, the other one!

PAUL: Yes.

PHIL: That's a memory that nobody understands.

PAUL: But I have obviously such
fond memories of that time.

PHIL: Yeah, yeah.

PAUL: Er sorry, you can edit that out. Funnily
enough, we might not want to edit it out.

That was my agent calling Phil.

PHIL: Oh, no, keep it in.

PAUL: No, keep that in.

PHIL: Could be life changing.

PAUL: Exactly.

We'll come to agents later.

I remember some great performances you
did at college, and I also remember

really vividly how great you were when I

had the crazy idea of putting
on Joe Orton's Entertaining Mr.

Sloane.
PHIL: Oh, God

PAUL: You were terrific as the brother.

I forget the character's name now.
PHIL: I think it

PAUL: doesn't matter.
PHIL: Ed, actually, I think Ed

PAUL: That's right.
Yeah.

And doing that outside and my first sort
of idea of going, I quite like to direct.

And you and Lizzy,

looking back, do you have a particular
favourite role from drama school?

PHIL: Oh, God.

Well, I remember we did I think we had
like every second year, the end

of the second year was always like the end
of term, at the end of year,

sort of final show, though,
I did that, involved a musical.

PAUL: I should say, to our listeners.

Phil waved his hands at that point.
PHIL: Oh, yeah.

Audio only.

You gave your Richard III.

PAUL: That's correct.
Yeah.

And you were Clarence.

PHIL: That's right.

Which I did love, actually,
because it wasn't a very big part,

but it's very pertinent, very important
and rather beautifully poetic as well.

So I did enjoy that.

And then

earlier in the year, I was in a group
of people we did Noel Coward's Hay Fever

PAUL: Yes.
I was in that with you as well.

PHIL: Yes, you were.
That's right.

PAUL: I remember thinking,

oh, I'll never get cast
in The Noel Coward.

I'm not the kind of actor they'll go for.

And I thought you would.

And also my memory is you were quite
into Noel Coward, as a writer.

PHIL: Yeah.
Well, I still am, really.

I would possibly call it a bit of an
obsession, just devour it all, really.

PAUL: What was it?

Because I remember us talking probably
when we were at school and the O Level.

I didn't know much about him, and I think
I read his biography because of you.

What was it that drew a young lad from
Birmingham to the words of Noel Coward?

PHIL: God.
Well, there's probably a whole Freudian

deep conversation to be had there.

I remember having for some reason an LP.

Remember those long playing record?

But it was Words and Music of Noel Coward,

and there was a whole maybe
my grandma had it, actually.

And there was a whole section

from Private Lives that was recorded
of him and Gertrude Lawrence originally

from the 30s and a bit from there
from The Red Peppers and then some songs.

I think it was probably
that that kicked it off.

Really kicked it off.

And also remember when we were at college,

I think because of Hay Fever,
I think we were shown the BBC TV version

that Penelope Keith was in that she'd
done on stage and then did on television.

I think we just sat in the reading room
at the top of the Ivy House and watched

the whole of Hay Fever
and I just loved it.

It's so witty and funny.

PAUL: What would you say? I also
think he's an extraordinary writer.

What would you say the best production
of Coward's is or your favourite

production that you've
seen of any of his stuff?

PHIL: Oh, gosh, that's a difficult one.

PAUL: Did you see the Andrew Scott?

PHIL: I did Present Laughter, that
was extraordinary.

PAUL: That was extraordinary.
PHIL: And I think what directors need to,

try to do now is not make
it fusty, musty and dusty.

It's got to make sense for now, hasn't it?

And I think it does and it's so witty and

people don't think they're
very truthful and I think.

But they really are.
And I think that was a great production.

I remember the Alan Rickman, Lindsay
Duncan Private Lives very vividly.

PAUL: I bet they were great weren't they?
PHIL: Yeah.

I remember the fight.
They have a fight in act two or three.

And it's quite visceral
and it was quite physical.

PAUL: I really liked a production.

I think it was at the Donmar
of the Vortex with Chiwetel Ejiofor in.

PHIL: Oh yes.

PAUL: I really enjoyed that.
That was great.

PHIL: I saw that.
PAUL: Yeah.

And I remember kind of I didn't
know the play very well.

And I remember thinking, wow,
when you say visceral, it was

an extraordinary mother son
relationship in the play.

PHIL: I think he wrote that.

Coward wrote that very
early on in his career.

I'm sure it was one of the first as well.

That's so emotionally truthful.

It's a bit like Rattigan.

PAUL: I didn't quite expected.
I thought, wow,

it was very intense.

So of course, we all finally
graduated from Middlesex Poly.

PHIL: We did.

PAUL: And where were you, acting wise? Was it
something you still wanted to pursue?

PHIL: No, I don't think it was really.

I think I enjoyed it.

I think I enjoyed
the people and working on the texts

and some of the stage management stuff
we had to do I quite enjoyed as well.

It wasn't going to be a career choice.

It was a funny one,

because just after I graduated,
I wasn't very well for a little while.

PAUL: Oh of course.
PHIL: If you remember, I had

Non hodgkin's lymphoma.
So that sort of took six months of my life

just to sort of sort out and get treated
and it all worked out very well.

So I think that was a bit of a pause,

which maybe did make me
rethink stuff generally.

And actually I did go back to Middlesex
PAUL: I didn't know that.

PHIL: Yeah.

Because I started working, after,
when I was better,

I went to work at the National Theatre
in the box office.

PAUL: Okay.

PHIL: For about three years, I think,

and I didn't quite know
what to do long term.

And then somebody mentioned

the Middlesex Poly was now
a university, as so many of them were.

And so I ended up

going to see
David Owen Bell and Arthur Husk as well.

Used to run the other course

at Trent Park, and they were talking about
the degree course,

BA in Drama and Theatre Studies,
and I could put English into it as well.

And because I'd done the course

previously, I could miss the first
year and just do year two and three.

So I decided to do that,

1992 I think.

So I sort of went back to Ivy House, back
to where we had been those years before.

And it was a very surreal experience.

PAUL: It must have been very strange.

PHIL: Some of the same people were there,
but lots of new people.

Tutor wise, I think John Wright was
still doing stuff there actually.

PAUL: Okay.

I remember he, I'm thinking about John's
journey, because, of course, his

journey then completely tied up
with me and Hayley about five years.

PHIL: Yeah, cool.

PAUL: Five years after leaving. And then he was
still at Middlesex when,

certainly in our early shows,
because he used to teach a lot

at Trent Park and we used
to get free rehearsal space

PHIL: Oh, brilliant.

It's funny. His classes were the classes

that I was, you and Hayley and some others
were so brilliant at all of that stuff.

And for me, I was just a bit like ooh.

PAUL: It's funny you say that Phil, because

I think, like lots of things,
you're drawn to something.

I didn't know I was going
to be drawn to John's work.

I didn't know what John's work was.

If I'm honest, I think it was for me,

it was that perfect combination
of fear and excitement.

But I totally understand why it wasn't
for everybody, that's for sure.

So when did the kernel of the idea of
becoming an agent start to plant itself?

PHIL: It's quite a bit later, because

I did the degree
and I did sort of bits of work in other

box offices like the Riverside Studios
and the Lyric Hammersmith.

And the great thing about those jobs were

you met loads of people in the business,
actors, directors, producers.

And I really think that stood me in really
good stead for now, going forward and just

knowing who people are
and what they have done.

After that period,
there was an advert,

I used to look at the Guardian, jobs
were always in the Guardian on a Monday.

And there was a job for,

at the time, smallish dance company
called Adventures in Motion Pictures.

PAUL: Yes, Matthew Bourne.

PHIL: And they were looking for an office
assistant, it was called.

So I remember going for an interview with

Katherine Doré, who ran
the company with Matthew.

And then I got a recall
for want of a better word.

I went to meet Matthew
in a little coffee shop on St.

John street in Islington,
where the offices were. And

I got the job.

And I ended up working for Amp as it
was Adventures of Motion Pictures,

just as they were doing a UK tour

of Swan Lake,
the sort of famous and stunning

and brilliant Swan Lake, which at the time
had done Sadler's Wells and was

about to embark on a UK tour.

And just before Cameron Mackintosh said
to Matthew and Katherine,

let's bring it into the West End, come
on, got to bring it into the West End.

And the rest really is
history for that company.

It really turned a corner for them.

So I worked there for a little while,
five or six years, I think it was.

And Matthew's designer of choice
for a lot of the work was Lez Brotherston,

still is, the brilliant Lez Brotherston,
who you've worked with on productions.

And his agent was Cassie Mayer,
brilliant, brilliant agent.

And Karen, who used to look after Lez

and that side of the business was going
on maternity leave,

so they were looking for someone
to join, just probably temporarily.

And I remember thinking it was probably

time for a change and it was quite
an interesting world to be part of.

So I did.

I left Matthew and the company

and then I went to join Cassie for
I think it was three or four months

to cover maternity leave
and Karen just decided not to come back.

So I stayed.

And I really think it was a real, the

agent thing, that's where I sort
of learned it all, as much as you can.

PAUL: And it's interesting, isn't it,
like you said, like we all do.

I think I slightly fell into directing.

I didn't have any strong desire to direct.

And you talk about the agent thing,

it's not like a plan where you think I'm
going to work here with Matthew Bourne

and learn here, and then I'll go to
I think maybe that's a lot about theatre

in general, whatever your position is,
I never set out at all.

And then someone said,
you want to come and direct a play?

And I thought, oh.

Okay, that sounds...
In terms of the acting,

just before I leave it for good
Phil, before I close that door.

Did you ever have any regrets
about not acting more?

PHIL: I don't think I did, actually.

I enjoyed the course that I did
and the degree course that I went back

to do was more focused on the academic
side, to a larger set.

There were still lots of great acting
challenges there and we still did shows.

And I had some great fun and again,

met some lovely people
that I'm still in touch with.

No regrets.

I say a lot to people now,
I love being an agent.

I wouldn't want to be an actor.

It's hard.

PAUL: So you stayed with the agent that
you started working with.

PHIL: Yeah I did.
PAUL: And then what's the journey there

from there to now, having
your own or doing your own?

PHIL: It feels like a really
scattered trajectory, really.

I worked for Cassie for two and a half,

three years, and then I was approached
by a production company called

Stage Holding, who were a company
with offices in Germany and Holland.

They were coming over to the UK to do

a production of Susan Stroman's Contact,
which had been a big hit in America.

And they were opening a London office to
do Contact and hopefully some more shows.

So it was another diversion back into that
world, if you like, the production side.

I was sort of, not headhunted, but they
were looking for someone to join.

They were just a group
of three to set up the show.

So I decided to do that and I left
Cassie. Did a couple of years

at Stage Holding,
got to meet a casting director there

called Jill Green,
who was casting Contact,

but she had worked with Stroman
on a few other productions.

And fast forward a little bit,

an agent at the time called
Bronia Buchanan was looking for someone

to join her smallish
agency to build up a list.

She was primarily musical theatre and she

wanted an agent to join, a
young agent to join her.

I say young advisedly,
to set up a list of the nonmusical actors

to try and develop
that side of her business.

So that happened.
I met her.

I did it.
I did it for five or maybe six years.

Another agent joined then not long after

me, Mark Ward, and
to cut a quite long story short,

we decided we were going to fly
the coop and do it for ourselves.

Well, maybe set up a business.

Not that we knew how to do that, really.

And be Belfield And Ward.

And that was in 2009.
PAUL: Wow.

PHIL: We did it.

PAUL: Was it quite scary, that notion
of setting up on your own?

PHIL: Yes, it was.

It was quite liberating.

Again, my mum and dad were
a bit like, okay, for sure.

PAUL: How did you go about getting clients?

PHIL: Well,

there were a few people that we were

working with when we were at the agency
that I just mentioned that we

were allowed, if you like,

because obviously when you leave
a company, there's always sort

of situations about what's in your
contract, what can you do?

It's very carefully handled.

So we were able to take
a few clients with us.

So we did that.
I think we had 15 at the beginning.

And then...
PAUL: How many do you have now?

PHIL: Too many!

No,

it varies.

Mark works primarily mainly on the musical
theatre side, and I work on

a lot of that as well,
but also on the other television, film,

some radio, the straight theatre
side for want of a better word.

So we have diverseness,
but we come together.

We know exactly what each other is doing

PAUL: And how many do you have in your
team apart from the two of you?

PHIL: Well it's just at the moment because

everything that, we were four just when
the dreaded Lockdown happened it was

myself and Mark and two brilliant
assistants and then now we are three

because one of our lovely assistants
decided,

as so many people did I think over
the Lockdown that there was another way

forward life wise and career wise so
she decided to train to be a teacher.

PAUL: Fair enough.

PHIL: Now we're just three

PAUL: A nice compact team. Now I have to ask you

this, Phil as an agent,
did you watch Call My Agent?

PHIL: Yes and I was and am obsessed.

PAUL: Yes can I say the same
thing? I also loved it.

PHIL: It's brilliant isn't it?

PAUL: But when Hayley said to me in Lockdown oh,
you should watch this French thing called

Call My Agent and when she described what
it was about I thought I had no desire

but then once I watched one like many

people I was utterly gripped I
thought it was wonderful, wasn't it?

PHIL: Yeah it was a great piece of

television and all those amazing stars,
those great stars TV and cinema that they

tempted to each episode
it was just brilliant.

PAUL: It was amazing. Now also my next question
cause of course I know my own agent very

well and I go to the office
but the dynamics of course

in Call My Agent is that in any
way like your office?

PHIL: No because they're a much bigger set up

aren't they. they've got
a reception and they've got staff

PAUL: But did it ring true for you?

PHIL: Yes I think it did in some of the
interactions within the agency

and the conversations that you have that
you would never want repeated or recorded

yeah some of that does ring true because I
think actors are actors and agents are

agents I don't think it's a complicated
job I always say it's not really rocket

science but you have to have your wits
about you but some of it did make me laugh

and some of it did make me cringe
a bit it's very different.

Very rarefied you know.

PAUL: And also I don't know about you but part

of the appeal for me in Lockdown was
to see those wonderful Parisian locations

PHIL: Yeah, I agree.

PAUL: Now my next question is I'm slightly
nervous I just worked recently

with someone who's going to be
in the British version but I'm a little

nervous about the British version
how do you feel about that prospect?

PHIL: I'm also a little nervous about it I think

partly because when you love something
and adore something so much and somebody

else is making another version of it I
think instinctively you feel it won't be

as good but I don't necessarily think
that I think it will be different

I don't know if I should say but I have

had a couple of
people, ooh my ear thing has fallen out,

a couple of people have met for it,

have auditions for it
I've read a bit of it I think it's going

to be very true to some of the plot
lines of the French version.

PAUL: Is it kind of an episode for episode
copy of the French version?

PHIL: I'm not quite sure.

I think it might be initially,

but I believe if it is, they'll then
want to take it in another direction.

And I presume that I think there are
guest stars in each episode

In the same way

As there were in the French one in the
same way. I'm a bit anxious about it.

PAUL: I don't know a personal thing,
but also one of the reasons why I liked it

in terms of the ensemble in the agency
in Paris, I didn't really know any

of those actors, so I just got
sucked into the characters.

My slight worry is knowing that some
of the British actors, as we will,

we've always got a sense
of oh that's so-and-so.

Whereas in the French version I could
just enter the story you know.

PHIL: And I wonder what the appeal
will be in a way.

Because I don't know
whether is it a bit niche?

Is it something that people
are that interested about?

But I think if it's as funny as witty,
then it will draw people in won't it

and maybe having recognisable people
in it help with that, I suppose.

PAUL: Yeah, hopefully, yes.

Now one of my final questions, it has been
absolutely lovely chatting to you Phil,

but one of my final ones is
probably one of the harder ones.

What do you look for in an actor when
you're looking to take someone on?

What qualities are you after?

PHIL: Well, I think you have to see
that they can do it.

So chances are you would have been to see

or have seen or at the very
least know their work,

which is difficult if they're
young actors, graduates.

You go to drama schools and you
see showcases and all of that.

I think you have to have some sort

of personal connection or desire to
work with that person.

You have to know that they can do it.

And I think you have to have a sense

within your agency or
the business where they would sit

and how you could work with them and what
the industry, what the world of casting is

looking for as well at the moment
because it's ever changing.

The industry is changing even quicker than
it ever used to I think at the moment. I

t's a very personal thing.

I've been to drama schools when other
agents I've got lots of friends who are

agents, I believe that's
a really nice support network.

I'm not one of those agent that's like,
I don't care about other agents.

I just do what I do.

I think it's really important
to know and talk to other agents.

Sometimes we'll see someone and we'll

think he or she was amazing and then
the other person will say, well,

I didn't like that person, th
at's not for me at all.

I think it's a very personal

feeling, but I think you know
instinctively,

if you'd like to work with someone just
from seeing them, and then, of course,

then you have to meet
them and talk to them.

And occasionally you might get

a vibe where you think maybe we
wouldn't be a very good fit.

But when you think I will be a good fit
and I want to work for that person,

you'll do anything you can to get
them to sign with you, I think.

PAUL: Yeah,

I can imagine that on a different level,

I suppose it's a bit like when I'm
casting, if I'm directing something,

you're not just looking for an actor
that might be right for the part.

You're looking for someone or I'm looking

for someone who is quite
open, is quite playful.

PHIL: It has to be a dialogue.

I think the agent actor thing is
certainly a very precise dynamic.

It has to be a dialogue,
it can't be a it's my way or the highway

type thing or go here,
do this, don't question me.

It has to be a conversation whether it's

a young graduate or an actor
with years of experience.

PAUL: Yeah.
PHIL: It's a difficult world.

PAUL: It is.

And I think you make a very good point
about how the industry is changing very

quickly in the last couple
of years has changed hugely.

And I think everybody certainly actors,
I feel, have to be incredibly adaptable

and be aware of things in a way that maybe
perhaps people weren't.

Even down to kind of technology,
kind of thinking about my generation.

So you have to either be on top of that or

have a highly qualified teenage
daughter who can sort it out.

PHIL: Yes.

That's what you need.

Self taping. It's not going away I don't

think, that's going to be
with us for a good while.

If it means that casting directors can see

more people and get more people in,
as it were, I think it's a positive.

PAUL: Do you think theatre will continue to go
in that direction? I know film and TV

obviously will. But do you think
theatre will go back to live casting?

PHIL: I think it will.
I think it by its nature.

I think it has to.
And I think people that work in that side

of the business, they'd much
rather be in a room with people.

PAUL: Yeah

PHIL: I think actors would as well.

PAUL: I think so.

I mean, I understand
with film, of course I understand film TV,

but I think I wouldn't
audition theatre on Zoom.

I need to be in a space with someone
and see what they're like.

PHIL: People have had to do musical theatre
auditions on Zoom and self tapes.

PAUL: It's crazy.

PHIL: It's mad! You know, backing tracks
or a pianist in the corner.

It's just impossible.

But now it is moving now
more into that already.

People are now getting into the room
with all the COVID protocols and things.

We have to get that moving
again, for sure.

PAUL: I know musicals are close to your heart,

and they're much closer to mine
than I thought they would become.

My partner, Sarah Jane is an enormous,
grew up with musicals, when she was young,

a bit like you,
so I love them now as a form.

PHIL: Good, glad to hear.

PAUL: I've seen quite a lot of them. I
particularly enjoyed Sarah Jane and I went

to see over Christmas
the Cabaret production?

PHIL: Oh yes, great.

PAUL: Which I really enjoyed partly because

PHIL: I have the brilliant
Anna-Jane Casey in that

PAUL: Oh right, ok.
PHIL: Playing Frauline Kost.

PAUL: She is brilliant.
PHIL: Yeah. She is!

PAUL: All the cast.
PHIL: Oh it's a fantastic cast.

It's a brilliant
production, it's so immersive.

PAUL: I think so.

And I loved it because it wasn't
like how I'd seen it before.

I've seen other productions and how they
turned it into the round and everything.

It was a delight.
PHIL: Hot ticket as well, Paul, good

you got in.
PAUL: Yes.

Hot ticket as they say.

Phil, it's been such
a delight talking to you.

Before we finish I'm going to ask
you a random seven questions.

All you need to say is your first
answer in response to these questions.

PHIL: Okay
PAUL: Number one. Evita or Phantom of the Opera?

PHIL: Evita

PAUL: Harvey Nichols or Selfridges?
PHIL: Selfridges

PAUL: Birmingham or London?

PHIL: Errr London, London. Just.

PAUL: Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire?

PHIL: Gene Kelly

PAUL: Barcelona or Paris?

PHIL: Paris

PAUL: Michael Jackson or Prince?
PHIL: Prince

PAUL: Shakespeare or Noel Coward?

PHIL: That's a really difficult one,
Shakespeare. Love it.

I love it.

PAUL: Phil, we should do this,
not wait 20 years until next time

PHIL: Please.
PAUL: I know you've got the brilliant,

my dear friend Patty is with you so maybe
we can hook up and see her in something

PHIL: Yes we should do something together, I'd love that. It's been far too long.

PAUL: Phil, thanks so much for joining us.
You've been wonderful.

I'll see you soon.
PHIL: Thank you so much.

See you soon, Paul.

PAUL: Dear listeners if you've enjoyed this
Idiot podcast please spread the word.