Paul: Hello, and welcome to 'Regrets,
I've Had A Few'.

I'm Paul Hunter,
Artistic Director of Told by an Idiot.

And this is a podcast where I talk

to friends and colleagues, delving into
what made them the person they are today.

hello.

My first guests of 2022
are pioneers of theatre.

Over the past 46 years,
they have supported the experimental,

the unusual, the entertaining,
the provocative.

They've also
supported emerging British companies,

of which Told
by an Idiot were one, some time time ago.

And I think it's fair to say that they

have, in some ways, many ways,
changed the face of British Theatre.

The Directors

of the London International Mime Festival,
Helen Lannaghan

and Joseph Seagull. Seelig. [laughter]
Welcome. Off to a flying start.

Can't get your name right.
Welcome both.

Now, I think I've got Helen coming

in from Brighton and Joseph,
you're in Willesden Green, I believe?

Willesden Green?
Joseph: Yes.

No need to tell everybody that.

Paul: Sorry,

I'll do that again.

I've got Joseph coming
in from Monte Carlo.

Joseph: That's it! We've been up and coming here

since about 1850 and,
well, we're nearly there.

Paul: Well, I think it's true.

I can't think, actually,
I was thinking about this.

And maybe there are some examples
that someone will tweet us about.

But I can't think of many other
partnerships in theatre that have not only

had the longevity that you have but have
continued to kind of keep developing

rather than just rehashing
the same old thing.

So I'm going to take you both back

a while ago to your first theatre
experience, what you first saw on a stage

and what you recall of it. Helen, what
was your first Theatre going experience?

Helen: Crikey.

I remember coming,

so I had this strange upbringing.

I grew up in a children's home,
which my parents ran, but we used to go

to see theatre things,
so I remember going to a group outing,

I'm not sure maybe the Hippodrome

in Brighton to see a pantomime
in which there was an extremely scary

green rat and every time the green rat
character came on,

there was a green spotlight,
and I had to hide behind the seat.

So that was my first experience.

Paul: Joseph, what about your first experience?

Joseph: Well, look, before my first experience,
I wanted to just thank you very much

indeed, for your extremely
generous introduction.

Yes, I too, grew up in a children's home,
but there were only two of us.

My sister and I.
It was tough.

My parents ran that one, too,
and I'm not sure if it was my first

theatre experience, but the first theatre
experience I had that I actually remember

was at the Birmingham Rep,
because, as you know,

I come from Birmingham,

I was going to say I'm proud of it. It's
just an accident of birth, isn't it?

Anyway, it's very nice place.

And it was Henry V.

And Henry V was played by Albert Finney.
Paul: Wow.

Joseph: Yes, indeed.
Albert Finney.

And I don't know why,
but my mother and I, for it was she

who took me were sitting in the front row
and Albert or Hal,

as he was known in the play,
he kind of came off stage and

across the, ran in front of the front row,
and I had my legs sticking out.

But thank God, I wasn't very old.

My legs weren't very long.

But had they been any longer, he would
have gone flying sprawling over them.

But it was the most exciting,

wonderful thing. And I'll never forget it,
even though I can't remember it very well.

Paul: It's interesting because as a fellow
Brummie, as you know,

I think one of my earliest would have been
at the Birmingham Hippodrome,

where this ties into you, Helen,
when I was taken to see Danny La Rue

in a pantomime and I'd never seen anything
quite like it, this kind of outrageous

persona, much of which I didn't
understand but my dad found very amusing.

And I think that kind of early exposure

to variety has kind of remained
with me in many ways in our work.

But if that's what your first experience

of theatre was, how did you both
get into showbiz.

Joseph, how did you get started?

Joseph: I was just thinking what you
were thinking about variety.

I also remember, actually,

I was very little because I went with
I think she was the au pair girl.

I don't know why we I mean, why did we
have an au pair girl when I was eleven?

I don't know.
But anyway, we went to the - it's long

gone - the Windsor Theatre Bearwood
to see, it was a variety bill.

I remember Nancy Whiskey with

Charles McDevitt and somebody
else from the Vipers.

Anyway, how did I get into?

I was keen.
I was a keen amateur thespian.

There was this great place in

Birmingham called the Midlands Art Centre,
which had only recently opened.

This was in the earlyish 1960s,

and I joined it and I was in several plays
there and I thought I was pretty good.

The second play I was in, in fact, I have
my doubts about how good I was in that.

It was directed by none than Mike Leigh.

I think it was his first ever.
Paul: Wow.

Joseph: Yes, it was his first ever job.

And

this is a bit conceited now,

but you know how it is when people,
you know, write their autobiographies,

you rush off to the bookshop
to see if you're in the index.

And if you are, you buy it, on Amazon.

And if you're not, you don't.

And Mike Leigh has directed only about

five plays, I think, six plays
that he didn't write or devise.

And this was Endgame by Samuel Beckett,
which he didn't devise or, or

write.

So he actually mentions me
by name, in his er,

thank you very much indeed Mike Leigh.
Anyway, that was great.

Paul: Who did you play?

Joseph: I played Hamm, or was it Clov?
I don't know.

It was one or other.
It's the bloke in the -

Paul: - Was he in the chair?
Joseph: In a wheelchair

Paul: In the chair.
Joseph: Yes.

I still don't really understand what it

was all about, but that's
not Mike Leigh's fault.

That was mine.

Anyway, as I said,
yeah, I thought I was quite talented.

Paul: So it was acting that you
initially pursued.

Joseph: Absolutely.

And indeed, when I left school,

I went to the local drama school and I
still thought I was pretty good.

And I did quite a bit of work when I left.

But mostly it was radio work.

The first piece of theatre that I was
involved in after drama school was

the production of The Bells, which was
directed by the late Marius Goring.

And I was late for the first rehearsal.

This is in Leeds.

I was late for the first rehearsal and he
told me to go away and not come back

until I got a watch because
I didn't have a watch.

I bought a watch.

I bought a watch for £3.10 from the first
place I came to was actually a pawn shop.

It's a very beautiful watch,
and I've still got it.

And I'm very grateful to him

for being the reason that I have this
watch, although I'm not particularly

grateful to him for the production of
The Bells, which was a memorable failure.

Paul: Well, I'm going to imagine that production
of The Bells, if that's all right, Joseph,

and I'm going to come to you, Helen,
what was your first entree into theatre?

Helen: My first entree?

Well, I was in Lewes Youth Theatre, which
is where I went to secondary school.

And from there I applied - the big thing

was to get into the National Youth
Theatre - that was the big hope.

And I did indeed get into the National
Youth Theatre as a stage manager.

I did act at school as well,

but I always felt a bit happier behind
the scenes rather than on the stage.

And yes, from the National Youth Theatre,
I then spent a few misspent years

in the book trade in London. But really,
my first love was theatre.

So I did a degree, as you do
in History of the Far East.

At SOAS. So, yeah,
that was slightly strange.

But while I was there,
my then boyfriend was doing mime classes,

and he was in the same class
as a chap called John Mowat.

And we said, God, this guy is really good.

We'd really love to get
his London premier going.

So we looked for a theatre and we found
the Place Theatre, which was at that stage

a private theatre.
And I used my University grant cheque

to hire the Place Theatre
to put on John's premiere.

And the main thing that we wanted
was to be in the Mime Festival.

This is about 1979, 1980.

We wanted to be in the Mime Festival,

and we wanted to impress
a certain Joseph Seelig.

And so the Place Theatre, I think,
had about 200 seats at the time.

So we sold out.

There was a queue around the block.

This is long before social media and all
that kind of networking,

John was the most incredible original
networker. So we turned people away.

Joseph came and was amazed and booked us

for the Mime Festival,
and I got my grant back.

So all was well.

Paul: Well,

that preempts my next question. So that is

when you first met, when you
invited Joseph to the show?

Helen: Well, I think

I already kind of knew him because
I knew him from afar.

He was a cigar smoking figure.

He used to prop up the bar

in the Cockpit Theatre's bar
because I was a fan of the Mime Festival.

But of course, you know, one didn't
speak to the great Joseph Seelig.

He was sort of someone that we were
all slightly nervous of.

Yes, in later
years, yes of course I discovered -

Joseph: Nobody speaks to me now,
but that's for other reasons.

Paul: Joseph, what's your memory
of that first meeting with Helen?

Joseph: Well, I was very impressed. Well what I
remember first about Helen was that she

had a, what do they call it, a
mullet or something? A style of hair

Helen: I think you called me Raccoon Head.

Joseph: Ah yes, but look, the point is,
I turned up, didn't I?

Helen:You did.
Joseph: I turned up and I saw this old relic, well,

he wasn't then, John Mowat,
and he was very good.

He was very good.

I was impressed, as I have been,
38 years later or however long it is.

Paul: We'll come more to your relationship
because you are a double act.

But I can really relate to what you just

said, Helen, because I remember
before Told by an Idiot started

so 26, 27 years ago, Hayley and I and some

pals trying desperately to get
into the Mime Festival and making a kind

of clown, I wouldn't call it a show,
there was only about ten minutes of it. A

clown sketch
about Salvador Dali and Garcia Lorca.

I think I must have written a handwritten
letter to Joseph,

inviting him to Trent Park,
one of the Studios that we managed

to borrow from our old University. And
to our utter amazement, you turned up.

Now, obviously you turned us
down, we weren't in the festival.

But I still think the big thing
was you actually turned up.

Joseph: Well, two things there.

First of all, I'm delighted that

the Mime Festival wasn't something
anybody could just walk into.

So that's good.

And secondly, Yes, I always tried to go
to see things, if I possibly could.

I'm sure I was deeply impressed Paul,
you got this all wrong.

Maybe
it was a clerical error or something.

Paul: I think I maybe misunderstood,
Joseph, I'm sure it's a -

Joseph: - Yes, yes. The words over
my dead body have many

different meanings.

Paul: And that letter from your solicitor,
I'm sure was just a misunderstanding.

Joseph: Absolutely.
I certainly never paid his bill.

Paul: Now, you two, when did you properly start
working together, then? On the festival?

Joseph: Well, Helen's story is

I started this festival, not 'this' festival.

I started 'the' festival, it was called

the Cockpit Festival of Mime and Visual
Theatre in the first year it was 1977,

and I was working at the time
at the said Cockpit Theatre.

And I was doing it all on my own.

Everything. I mean, listen,
life was simpler then,

but I did everything on my own,
but I was getting very tired of it.

And I think I was, so Helen tells me,

I was about to throw it up or throw
it in. Sorry, not throw it up.

Helen: Yeah, not throw it up, no.
Joseph: No,

throw in the towel.

And I must have mentioned this to somebody
called David Glass, who you probably know.

And he said to me, you ought
to go and see Helen Lannaghan.

She's talented.
She's good.

She's this and the other.

Well, he didn't say she's this, that

and the other, he said she's
talented and very good.

And we had a meeting.

Well, I knew Helen already, didn't I?

Because Helen had founded, had set up
something called Mime Action Group

Paul: Yes, of course [laughs]

Helen: Oh dear.

Joseph: Mime Action Group was set up
entirely to make my life miserable.

Helen: Sorry, Joe

Joseph: Because we brought, our festival,

brought in work from overseas
as well as from England.

But Helen was very concerned that we
didn't have enough British work.

And she was, in fact, making my life quite
miserable, really lobbying for this.

Helen: Sorry [laughs]

Joseph: And I think it's Lyndon Johnson who went
on about better to have somebody inside

the tent pissing out
than outside pissing in.

And it seemed to me that I could make

my life a lot easier by not having Helen
sort of attacking me all the time in this

Mime Action Group. And also because she
seemed to me to be an extremely competent

and capable,
pleasant person that I got on with.

So I asked her if she would
help me with the festival.

And she agreed that she would.

She asked for an awful lot
of money, I have to say.

Helen: I beg your pardon!

Joseph: No, no, given what I myself was earning,
it seems to me outrageous.

But anyway.
Helen: Sorry, I'll just get my violin. Hang on a sec.

Joseph: It was worth it then and it's been worth it ever since.

Paul: Joseph, we don't dwell on matters of
commerce on this platform, I assure you.

Joseph: Oh excellent.
Paul: It's all about the art. Helen.

So that first festival,
how was it for you?

It must have been quite an exciting thing,

wasn't it, to be part
of running and organising this?

Helen: [laughs] Well, yes,

yea so it was 1986
when Joe asked me to come and start

working with him. And so, yes,
see how it was all done from the inside.

This is all very exciting,
working on the international front.

And of course, Joseph,

he was running his rather glamorous outfit
because he was also an artists' manager.

He ran an artists' management company.

So there were all sorts
of exciting things going on.

They had things like a telex machine,
whoever remembers them?

Yes, very exciting stuff.

So, yeah, to work on the international
front as well as the British stuff.

Suddenly it all takes on a rather
different balance. And getting to travel.

I love to travel, you know.

So suddenly, making these visits,

to see things, to try and find
new work for the festival.

Yes, it was great.
It was very exciting.

Paul: On the subject of the festival. Now,

you don't need to name any names
or any individual companies.

But I wonder if either of you have ever

regretted booking anything
for the festival.

Joseph: [laughs] How long have you got?

Paul: If its one of my shows, we can end
the podcast here, I can assure you.

Helen: [laughs] No, no not yours. Well -

Joseph: - I think, Helen after you. Oh alright, alright.

In fact, I think it was
in that very first year.

Was it?
No.

We went to see

did we go to even America or somewhere?

Helen: Oh,
don't. There were ironing boards involved.

Joseph: Ok I won't. All right, yes alright I won't.

Helen: Yes.
Yea, we can't name names but that was -

Paul: - No, no.

Helen: When you said your first festival
and how did you feel about it?

That was the show that sprang to my mind.

And I thought I can't say
that. But that was just -

Paul: Ok well, well, we can gloss over that

Helen: Yes, lets gloss over that

Paul: But the wonderful thing is you've conjured up
something brilliant with

the phrase ironing boards were involved.

Joseph: But honestly, out of several
hundred shows over the years.

Helen: Nearly eight hundred, yes.
Paul: Is it?

Joseph: How many?

Helen: Nearly 800.

Joseph: Good God, because there's about half

a dozen that I think we
would regret having booked.

But there's a very good reason,

in each case, why we did book them.

But that's about it.

Paul: That is a very satisfying kind of strike
rate, isn't it, to reflect on.

Joseph: Absolutely.
Helen: Yeah.

Paul: You've also, over the years, you've seen,

as I mentioned in the introduction,
a lot of emerging young British artists

and companies. Is there anybody or any
company in the last couple of years or

this indeed, this festival coming up,
British that you would recommend,

or that you see having a kind
of longevity or future?

Joseph: Helen?

Helen: Yeah, absolutely.

I think the Pappy Show,

Kane Husbands Pappy Show,
I think they're absolutely ones to watch.

They've been going just a few years now,
but they really have got momentum now.

And I think considering where we are now,

particularly with Let's Create and the new
ten year strategy for the Arts Council,

I think that they are right on the money
in terms of what the sort of work

that they're doing, the artists
that they're working with.

So I think that they're terrific.

Barely Methodical Troupe,

obviously, they've been around a little
bit, but I think that they're still ones

to watch, and they are working on larger
scale stages now. So yeah, I think

they're good, Joe?

Joseph: Well,

I agree with all that,

but we also have great hopes for a very
interesting young man from Scotland.

Helen: Sadiq Ali.

Joseph: Yea, yea, Sadiq Ali. I. Helen?

Paul: That's why it's always good to have
a double act. So tell me about Sadiq Ali?

Helen: So Sadiq, his speciality is Chinese pole,
but he has,

comes from a queer aesthetic using Chinese
pole and really talking about a very

difficult subject matter,
which is being a gay Muslim man.

It's really hard.

This is one of the shows where

circus arts, physical theatre is being
used to tackle quite serious topics,

because I think there was a moment many
years ago where if you looked through

the festival programme,
it did seem to be a lot of clown.

And I think as years have gone by,
I think it's been become apparent

that this is absolutely a medium that can
tackle serious topics,

and that's evidenced by quite a lot
of the shows in the festival this year.

Paul: And also, that sounds amazing.
Where's he playing? Where's his show?

Helen: His show is going to be at Jackson's Lane.

And it's actually the very
last weekend of the festival.

So the 4th, 5th and 6th February.

Paul: But it's interesting, isn't it?

I mean, two things.
Well, many things.

But two things are in my mind when I think
about your festival is I think what people

maybe don't appreciate who are slightly
younger is that your festival,

for a lot of my generation, was the only
opportunity to see international work.

It was before the Barbican were bringing
over a lot of international stuff.

So it was a chance for people to see stuff

they've never heard of,
unless you were touring abroad and you met

them on the international
touring circuit.

And I wonder as well whether things
also go in trends or fashions.

Like you say, Helen,
you sometimes have a lot of clown

emerging, and then maybe that shifts
as the world shifts a bit as well,

and we see slightly
different forms emerging.

Do you know what I mean?
Helen: Yeah, totally.

I think that's right.

Certainly circus theatre has been
a sort of growing part of our festival.

And each festival,

we try to make sure that there's a sort
of a balance between things that are sort

of animation, puppetry,
visual theatre, mime, a bit of mask.

We try to work across those kind
of disciplines

under the umbrella and try to make sure
that there's not too much of any one

particular discipline,
but certainly the circus theatre artists,

particularly the ones who come
from France, really have wonderful skills,

stories, direction,
production values. It's tremendous.

Paul: Yeah.

I was thinking if you were both to be

sitting on your desert
island and you could take

one show that you have programmed across

the years to watch repeatedly on your
desert island, what it would be? For me,

it would probably be
the Right Size show, Moose,

which is still one of the most
entertaining evenings I've had with other

people in the same room watching
a group of other people.

So if you could only take one,
what would it be, Joseph?

Joseph: Oh, gosh.
Okay.

I'll say A Minute Too Late
by Complicité, or Théâtre de Complicité

as it was then.

But really,

that's the first one that came to mind.

Paul: No, that's a great choice.
When did you have it in the festival?

Joseph: It was, I don't know, in the mid 80s,
literally, in the year it was invented.

And what's extraordinary about that show is, it was so funny.

It was so touching,
tender, but funny, funny.

I laughed myself silly,
and I didn't realise until some time

later, which goes to show how sensitive
and intelligent I am that it was actually

poor Simon McBurney was
commemorating his father, who died.

So anyway, but that was a brilliant show.

But I think I can't remember you can have

eight records on your desert island.
So there are at least another seven,

I would add to that, but, yeah,
it was something simply wonderful.

And I thought that it epitomised what I
would like, I would like to think

the festival was,
which was something which highlighted

British talent and international
talent all in one.

And if I could just go back to something

you were saying earlier when you
were asking Helen about that?

Yes.

When we started, it wasn't one of the few
festivals or the festival was one

of the few opportunities where you
could see international work. Really.

Okay.
40 something years ago.

It's not hundreds of years ago.

It's amazing

how little non-British work
you could see in the theatre.

And now, yes,
lots of brave theatres in London bring

things from abroad,
not so much in the regions, but actually,

nobody really seems to be bringing
what we put together at all.

I'm not quite sure why,

but I think that's why the festival has
survived or flourished as long as it has.

Paul: I totally agree.

I think it's absolutely spot on.

Helen, your show to take
to your Desert Island?

Helen: My show, well, it's going
to have to be Tomáš Kubínek.

His solo show.

Which I think he's just a genius.

He's just such a funny man.

And the material is so funny,

even though Rolf Harris got there before
the extra leg, that gag and flying around

the stage and telling
these little stories,

I think he's magical,

and who's not going to take a
clown to a desert Island, you've got to

take the clown.
Paul: Absolutely.

And I think one thing again

that the festival celebrates,
I always feel,

which maybe isn't always celebrated
in more conventional British theatre.

It celebrates the role of the performer,
and we have a lot of work in Britain,

nothing wrong with it, but celebrates
the director or the writer.

Whereas I think the festival still very

much places the performer front
and centre,

and obviously for me and Hayley and John,
that was always and remains what we're

about, as well,
the notion of the performer.

I certainly thank you for supporting

that over the years. It sounds weird
because performers are on stage,

but weirdly, they can get
slightly sidelined sometimes.

Don't get Hayley Carmichael
started on that.

She's very passionate about that.

She's the only person who refuses
to come on the podcast as well.

It's quite good,

Helen: Oh really [laughs]

We haven't fallen out, by the way, but
I might do a version of the podcast where

I interview Hayley again a bit like I
do with you, but I play Hayley as well.

So watch this space.

It's been really lovely chatting, guys.

I've got eight questions left and they are

quick fire questions addressed to
each of you individually. And I want you

to say the first response
to this question.

Joseph, you're up first.

Jacques Tati's Monsieur Hulot's Holiday

or Charlie Chaplin's, The Gold Rush?

Joseph: Err Monsieur Hulot

Paul: Helen, juggling or puppetry?

Helen: Puppetry

Paul: Joseph, Cadaqués or Biarritz?

Joseph: Cadaqués. No contest

Paul: Helen, Edith Piaf or Jacques Brel?

Helen: Edith Piaf

Paul: Joseph, mushy peas or black pudding?

Joseph: Can I say neither? And I've
never been to Biarritz either

All: [laughter]

Paul: Helen, Berlin or Barcelona?

Helen: Barcelona

Paul: Joseph, Evelyn Waugh or P. G Woodhouse?

Joseph: P. G Woodhouse

Paul: Helen, Delicatessen or Life Is Beautiful?

Helen: Life Is Beautiful

Paul: Joseph, Helen, I will see you very soon

at some of these brilliant
events that you've planned.

It's always great having a laugh, and

hopefully we can do that together
in person, very soon.

But thanks so much for coming on.

Joseph: Thank you very much, Paul.
Helen: Thank you, thanks Paul.

Paul: Take care, all the best. Bye bye.

Joseph: Bye.

Helen: Bye.

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